Worst Bomber...

[simon]

Well with the Worst Fighter thread in full swing I'm surprised no-one else has started the obvious sister thread, so here goes...

Nominations and reasons please for the worst bomber, dive bomber, ground attack or torpedo bomber of WWII. Preferably an aircraft that made operational service, even if it was only briefly.

I'm actually going to change my vote from the other thread, my top three, in order are:

1) Blackburn Botha (Torpedo Bomber). A disaster in almost every respect, slow, underpowered, underarmed and difficult to fly. A failure as a torpedo bomber, and almost as bad in the role of a trainer.
2) Fairey Battle (Light Bomber). Obsolete in record time, poorly armed, slow and, basically a complete death trap. Redeeming features were a useful career as a trainer, and the fact that a wrecked Battle provided the first armour for a fighter command aircraft, probably saving quite a few pilot's lives.
3) Heinkel Greif (Heavy Bomber). "The luftwaffe's lighter", does it need any other reason to be here? Remarkable capability of catching fire without warning due to the overcomplicated doubled engines.

Your turn...

[Corsarius]

Fairey Battle for me.

an altogether disappointing aircraft, with the HP Hampden coming along right after it. Unlike the Hampden, it wasn't even able to fight back in a miniscule way.

Reviewing my files (which admittedly have some large holes in them) I can't find a single area where the Battle distinguished itself except by being entirely undistinguished.

Runner up is the american version of essentially the same thing, the Devastator...

I always pity the poor buggers who had to fight a technically superior enemy, when the technology gap was so great that training didn't matter, and simply getting home was a triumph.

A bit off topic, several years ago I worked with an Iraqi expat who during the previous war was an armourer on Iraqi aircraft. A tale he told me will always stick. The call came through that enemy aircraft had been detected, the crews leapt to finish fuelling and arming. The aircraft were MiG-29s, two of them. He said that they accellerated to the end of the runway, and neither of them had fully cycled their undercarriage when they were both hit by missiles. Neither pilot stood a chance. He then had to run for cover as the airbase was hit shortly afterwards. No-one ever saw what fired the missiles. I'm sorry, but I find that chilling that they NEVER EVEN GOT THEIR GEAR UP. I guess that's combat these days.

That's what I look at in the way of 'worst bomber'. Those Fairey Battles were like the Iraqi MiGs.. They never knew what hit them, and courage counts for nothing.

[simon]

In its defence the Devastator was at least as good as every other Carrier Torpedo Bomber in service at the outbreak of hostilities in the Pacific, as the Devastator was a Carrier Torpedo Bomber and not a Light Bomber I'm not sure it can fairly be said to be the US equivilent of the Battle.

Its contemporaries were the B5N2 Kate for the Japanese and the Swordfish in the Fleet Air Arm, neither of which stood any real chance when attacked by fighters unless under a very strong fighter escort.

As I've said the Battle did have a useful, if undistinguished career as a pilot and gunnery trainer after being withdrawn from frontline duties, and as with a contemporary failure, the Defiant MkI, shared the characteristics that it was supposed to be a good aircraft to fly, if not to fight in.

The Botha by comparison was apparently such a pig to fly that a number of fatal accidents occured even when it was relegated to training, in the end the only use for it was as instructional airframes!

[Corsarius]

Well, my point is that the Devastator was well past it's time when put into use. It was massacred, and the only reason I know of it is for it's horrible demise.

The two aircraft were similar in terms of size, speed, weight carried, and the fact that they both replaced biplane aircraft and were considered a 'wave of the future'. Hopes were high on each aircraft, and these were terribly dashed when they failed.

That's the comparison. Yes, I agree they were different aircraft in different roles, but in those ways they were similar.

I, for one, never like the Reeeeaaallly Loooonnngg fuselage of the Battle. It just looked 'funny'. Same as the Fairey Fulmar. Great plane, but just funny looking.

[Corsarius]

To spam slightly... *I just made Captain! I have two funky little stars now! Yay!*

[simon]

In many ways then the Avenger was as bad as the Devastator, although admittedly an improvement on the latter, at the engagement most people know the Devastator for, Midway, the Avengers suffered proportionally equal losses. Interestingly people forget that at Coral Sea the Devastator didn't suffer much worse than the Japanese equivilent, the Kate.

The difference really between the Devastator and the Avenger was that when the latter came into service in numbers the best of the Japanese had already been defeated, plus significantly the Americans finally appreciated that Carrier attacks could not go in piecemeal and unsupported, but needed co-ordination and perhaps as important, fighter escort. If these principles had been understood and practiced at Midway, the Devastators would not have suffered as heavily. However as I'm fond of saying, "Hindsight is always 20/20".

Something the Avenger, Kate, Devastator and Battle all shared in common was an incredible vulnerability when not heavily escorted by fighters. For the first three that was indicative of the aircraft's role, the Battle however was just a remarkably poor aircraft.

Congratulations on your promotion, Captain.

[GregP]

Worst bomber. Hhmmmmm ....OK, here goes.

I nominate the Bristol Buckingham. First deliveries were delayed, the handling was ppor, and the performance was unimpressive. Despite these warining signs, they built 123 Buckinghams. They were so bad as Bombers that the type was diverted into being a ... transport!

Their record as a transport wasn't all that good, either.

OK, maybe it is not quite as bad as the Fairely Battle, but it is at least worthy of being mentioned when the worst WWII Bomber is being discussed.

Then again, the Japanese Betty (Mitsubishi G4M) caught fire almost as easily as the He-177. The only real difference was the Betty needed an Allied plane to shoot at it to do so. All the attacking fighter needed was tracer or API ammo and one hit ... and ... instant bonfire.

Yes, I know, the Grief could do that all by itself.

The thing is the Grief was no more or less inclined to catch fire if it encountered combat. The Betty, on the other hand, was a real nice plane that inspired confidence ... UNTIL you encountered combat. Then you were a crispy critter if you were a crew member.

I like to think of the Betty as dry kindling waiting for a match to flame up into a bonfire. It made a great signal flare.

[simon]

No, no, no the Blackburn Botha was far worse in every respect! Literally a killer as a trainer!

The He177 Greif didn't even need combat to catch fire, I've read in one book of a brief account during the Steinbock raids of 15 taking off to bomb London, and only 2 making the round trip, at least 2 aborted on the runway due to engine problems, and the rest were shot down or had to turn back before they reached the target, compare that to the Betty and the Mitsubishi plane has an enviable reputation for safety!

Later Betties (I think it was the G4M3) were no where near as fragile as their predecessors, including such luxuries as armour and self sealing tanks, problem was by the time they were in service the USN, USMC and RAAF (And to a lesser extent the RNZAF) pretty much dominated the Pacific.

[GregP]

OK Simon,

I just wanted to throw in another type, but the He-177 was, as you state, in a league of its own with regard to its incindiary nature.
I stand humbled by its ability to spontaneously ignite.

You are also right about the Blackburn Botha ... a terrible excuse for a plane. Flying one was akin to playing Russian Roulette with an automatic pistol ... best left to Superman.

I wonder what the fatality rate per sortie was for the Botha?

And here I was thinking the worst airplane HAD to be French. Not so, young Skywalker. I also thought the ugliest plane had to be Russian. Again, not so. Funny how preconceived notions are so often wrong, huh?

[simon]

Hate to think what the fatality rate was for the Botha, but it was one ugly sod too.

Well to introduce a few other bad 'uns, what about the Avro Manchester? The twin engine predecessor to the Lancaster, good airframe but engines so unreliable that they rivalled the "Greif", a bonus though that at least the Manchester's were just unreliable, not inflammable! And don't you just love that odd extra fin in the middle? It looks like the designers couldn't decide which type of tail-plane to use, so went for both!

Early B-17s? Unfit for Combat, well that's what the RAF thought of them anyway...

Ki49 "Helen", designed to replace the obsolescent Ki21 "Sally", but was no improvement on the earlier plane so they served alongside, rather than replaced the older type.

But you're right though, the Buckingham was pretty bad.;)

[CAPILATUS]

Well
I think Su-2 - too easy to down...

[robert]

I think the clear winner of this one has to be the L.W.S.4 Zubr. In addition to being one of the ugliest aircraft ever made, it also had to be one of the most useless. The plane couldn't be flown with the undercarriage retracted. It was so overstressed that it was liable to disintegrate at any time. And worst of all, the Zubr was literally unable to take off with a bomb load heavier than...well, a crate of dog food!

A few quotes from Jerzy B. Cynks's Polish Aircraft 1893-1939:

"To save time and expense the Department of Aeronautics insisted that conversion to the Pegasus engines should be carried out with the minimum of alteration. Initial investigations, conducted by P.Z.L stress specialists, revealed that this could only be done at the expense of a reduction in the safety factor, and the Department accepted the risk. Consequently, in spite of an increase in power of over 50 per cent, the structure was not strengthened except for the gluing of pieces of thicker plywood into some sections of wing covering...Superficial checks did not indicate any structural damage, but the spars were not examined properly...On [November 7, 1936], the aircraft...took off on a demonstration flight and then disintegrated in the air over Okecie aerodrome, killing the entire crew. Comprehensive static tests and thorough investigations were ordered to determine the causes of the crash, and those confirmed the general weakness of the wing and also revealed a considerable disparity between the theoretical and actual strength of the casein glue which reduced the already low safety factor even further.

"The undercarriage units imported from France had faulty locking mechanisms and the electric engines proved too weak to raise the wheels properly...The mechanical locking device added by L.W.S. did little to resolve the problem, and the undercarriages of most Zubrs were eventually locked permanently in the down position."

The Zubr entered service in the summer of 1939, but due to the increased weight, they were practically useless. Cynk notes, "The aircraft could not be operated at full loaded weight from temporary landing fields, and in a lightly loaded condition could carry virtually no bombs and were therefore useless for combat."

So while Poland was fighting for its life, the Zubrs remained grounded on their airfields, their only contribution to serve as decoys for German bombing raids. Now that's a really bad aircraft!

[Romantic Technofreak]

I wonder why nobody mentioned the Breda Ba. 88 "Lince". Although being already a record plane, becoming armed it became a disaster, even for Italian circumstances. As much as I know, the motors were the worst problem (Piaggio P. XI RC 40), which failed also in the Savoia-Marchetti S.M. 84, but obviously made no trouble in the CANT Z.1007, Reggiane Re.2000 and Savoia-Marchetti S.M. 79-II (I ask this riddle also in another forum).
Being used in the Libya theater, the Ba. 88 could not reach the necessary height for attack or keep a formation, so it had to be retired at once and was used as fake target or directed to the scrapyard.
If the Zubr was the worst, the Lince surely was the direct successor.

[GregP]

OK, I looked up the Lubelska Wytwornia Samolotow (LWS)-4 and I must admit, it was ugly, dangerous, and deserves the title of worst bomber better than any single other aircraft I have identified as yet.

A singularly usless flying machine if ever such a thing existed.

If parked in an Orange Grove and if actually fueled, it might have been able to delay the effects of a freeze by using the Bristol engines and propellers to actually move air across the citrus fruit, but it was incapable of attacking a military or civilian target except as falling debris as it shed parts on its way down to ground level from any altitude it may have been able to gain from attempted flight.

It was probably incapable of landing on a vital target as it fell, making me hope that Polish parachutes were better than the Zubr was as a bomber. If not, then you can add the crew in a potential falling objects in the damage assement of the crash after attempted flight.

[GregP]

One final thought about the Zubr. Mass production would have decimated the youg male population as effectively as combat in almost any other specialty did, so it is a good thing the production was limited to only 17 specimens.

That probably limited the victims to no more than 68 crewman plus any ground casulaties. Since the LWS-4 DID attain actual forward speed, and it DID have a wingspan of 18.5 meters, it is likely that ground casualties did not exceed several hunder unfortunate people.

This limits the historical damage to Poland to something around 300 people or less as the net effect of the Zubr on the general Polish population.

Certainly, the Zubr was not capable of actually crossign an intenational border in hostile flight, but one or more may well have fallen outside Polish boundaries and inflicted grief on a bordering country.

Perhaps that explains the German invasion and WWII. Did the Zubr fall into a German Military Parade by accident and actually START WWII?

Only an in-depth investigation could determine the answer, but the Zubr should NOT be discounted as a major cause of Polish casualties as well as being a setback to Polish aviation for the next 9 years.

[simon]

Just to reply to Romantic Technofreak, I think the Ba88 is covered on the Worst fighter thread, although I guess a lot comes down to whether you'd call it a Fighter-bomber or a Light-bomber... ;)

Any links for this delightful Polish aircraft BTW, do we have another candidate for the Ugliest Aircraft?

[Romantic Technofreak]

Alright, Simon, I have to admit that I just did not read everything here and I never expected the Lince categorized as fighter, because my books say nothing about that and its performance being a fighter is even more ridiculous than being a bomber.

Concerning the Zubr ("Buffalo"), I only can offer something German:

http://www.eichhorn.ws/html/body_lws_4_und_6_zubr.htm

I shall translate the text if somebody requires, but it does not say much more than Robert already wrote.

There is also something Polish, if you don´t know the language, just enjoy the pictures!

http://www.modelarstwo.org.pl/lotnicze/zestaw/broplan/zubr_72/

I have to admit I like the sight of that airplane. It looks like a nightmare, if unable to bomb, able to frighten a tough enemy like the SS, just by its look![xx(]
GregP, I think that even the citrus strategy failed because of the lack of orange plantages in Poland. Or does this have anything to do with Mussolini´s plan to cover New York with oranges?:)[^]:)

[GregP]

I'm glad I'm not the ONLY person to know of the great Orange conspiracy!

Not many people realize this, but Oranges falling from 30,000 feet first get frozen, then start to gradually thaw. But they hit the ground just before they acturally DO thaw, creating a great rain of Orange juice.

Again, not many people realiz it, but Orange Juice is one of the most corrosive fluid in existence, so the conspiracy to bomb New York City with oranges was, in reality, an attempt to corrode the New York Subway, leaving millions of New York citizens stranded in their daily commute.

It is good that the U.S.A. recognized this and errected a 600 square mile net to catch the oranges, or we'd have been gonners for sure!

If the Oranges had fallen on Manhattan, then the Manhattan Project would have simply rusted away!

[Romantic Technofreak]

Now everything is clear! LOL on the floor!!!
:):D[8D][:p][}:)][xx(][:X][8)]:)[^]

[simon]

Unless it was raining then the orange juice would have just washed away... Seriously though I love things like this, any more little gems? :D If only the Luftwaffe had this around June 1944, they could have rusted the Overlord Invasion Forces as they hit the Beaches!

Thanks for the links BTW, will have a look later when I get a bit more time.

[simon]

Have just looked at the links... and people actually want to make a model of this???

The horror... the horror...

[Romantic Technofreak]

I get more and more concious about the crafty citrus conspiration. Do you know that the Messerschmitt Me 264 was initially designed as transport airplane for citrus and tropical fruit? This is why the workers at the Messerschmitt facility called it "Banana airplane"...! Now I understand how an harassment (or even more?) attack on New York by the Me 264 was to be carried out: by throwing oranges! Together with Mussolini´s plan to pour the fruit from submarine-boarded floatplane bomber (something like the Aichi Seiran), this would have been a shaking shock against the American metropole...!
I cannot confirm that any Zubr ever crashed in a German military parade. But it is probable that the citrus conspiration was initially born in Poland, to employ the unflyable Zubr for blowing the cold winter wind away from the newly to be created citrus plantages on the Polish plain...[?][?][:o)] .
Maybe Hitler got secret informations about the citrus conspiration, and so he may have felt he HAD to attack to save Berlin from the cruel fate he later intended to put on New York!
I hope I can continue posting here because there are some nice young men in white suits knocking on my door...![:0][:0][:0][:p]:)

[GregP]

Hold everything, I just identified another potential candidate as perhaps the worst bomber in WWII. OK, technically it is a Dive Bomber.

Are you ready for this? I give you the Savioa-Marchetti SM.85!

The SM.85 was a wooden, angular, ugly, and grossly underpowered aircraft, completely devoid of the odius citrus conspiracy of previous posts. Though I would like to accuse this plane of being a citrus bomber, it is more of a turkey.

36 were built (qualifies as production), and they flew one mission on which they failed to find their target! Aftrer one mission, the wooden structure deterioriated and they were deemed inoperational!

I understand a single prototype that, after testing, is deemed to be structurally unsound, but 36 aircraft with a life expectancy on ONE MISSION on which they FAIL TO FIND THE TARGET surely qualifies as a standout of a miserable performer.

At least the Piaggio P.VII RC.35 engines could be salvaged for use in avoinding a citrus freeze (so they could load the Me.264 bombers with Italian Oranges), assuming there was fuel available and also assuming the SM.85 did not collapse on the propellers, rendering them unusable even for a citrus crop! I suppose some ingenious Italian COULD have devised a counterweight for the two bent prop blades, making the engines useful again, but ... really! A bomber with a life span of one mission!

Suppose they got lost and needed to refuel! The crews would be stuck wherever they landed, and the fuel would be useless since the bombers were unfit for flight!

Of course they DID propably land in an open pasture, again making the engines useful for citrus crops. That probably explains why most European citrus crops are located in fields, huh? It is most likely the place where a Savioa-Marchetti SM.85 landed!

Ignoring the single-mission life span could have made the SM.85 fall into the same class as the Zubr, and falling debris might have been a problem around whatever airfield was designated as the unfortunate SM.85's point of return from its one mission. If the mission ran too long, the aircraft would have already exceeded its useful service life, and so might begin to disentigrate all by itself.

Wise mission planners must have wanted to make the landing zone an enemy airfield for just such a possibility!

[GregP]

Romantic Technofreak,

I had never even considered the possiblity that Hitler may have had to start WWII because the Nazis had accumulated enough Oranges to bomb New York and rust away the subway system, but were left holding the Oranges when the planned bomber was not avilable.

Certainly they could not employ mass formations of Zubrs since they would never survive the journey across the Altantic (or even the fight across the border to get from Poland to Germany!), and mass formations of Savioa-Marchetti SM.85's would be another unlikely avenue of attack since the SM.85's would have used up their one-mission life span flying from Italy to Germany to be loaded with oranges.

I suppose they COULD have started license production of the SM.85's in Western France, transported the Oranges to the French coast, and launched the New York attack from there, but the wood for the SM.85's would probably have deteriorated on the trip anyway. After all, the SM.85's pieces were rated for only one mission, so it probably didn't matter how they traveled on the mission, they were scrap when they GOT there! I submit that never happened and, as proof, there are no massive citrus fields on the West coast of France today with mass quantities of Piaggio engines used as air movers in a freeze as there surely would be today if SM.85's were employed there.

So, we are left contemplating exactly what Hither and the Nazis DID do with the massive quantities of Oranges they must have had at the time.

An Orange is about 3.5 inches across, and I submit that is where the legendary German 88 mm gun came from. It was originally invented to use frozen Oranges as projectiles due to the enormous quantities available.

What do you say Romantic Technofreak?

Oh, and don't forget Simon's comment above. All these plans would have been for nothing in the event of rain since the Orange juice would have washed away instead of corroding the war machines of the enemy. So, the 88's were probably only intended as fair-weather guns, wouldn't you say?

[GregP]

C'mon guys, no more humor if it kills the discussion ... I promise to stick to the topic.

You can come back now with yet more bombers of dubious usefullness and perhaps lass than successful mission(s), assuming you can find one worse than the SM.85 with a useful life of ONE mission, that is ...

[Romantic Technofreak]

I must ask for a little patience, Greg. Just too much to do in the moment for to get a creative clue. And there is nothing wrong about humour, beautiful and horrible planes!
Yours sincerely,
Romantic Technofreak

[robert]

And for only $99.95, you can build your very own 1/48th scale S.M.85! To be fair, it looks like a very nice model. The only question is...why?

http://www.warbirdsinscale.com/sm85bonari.htm

[GregP]

Uneblievable! $99+ for a model of the worst bomber in WWII! Makes me wonder if the model would survive the trip from the maker to the end owner ... probably made out of bits of the original aircraft, and they ALREADY FLEW their ONE mission.

I suppose we could come up with an entire model set. We could include the Breda B.88 Lince, the SM.85, The Blackburn Botha, and all the OTHER rerally bad airplanes from WWII ( A Natter would HAVE to be included).

We could bill it as "A Collection of the Most Incompetent Combat Aircraft Ever to Take Wing," or "The Only Combat Aircraft to Kill More People of Their Own Side than the Enemy". We could have 'em all made in the Phillippines (so they'd last longer than if made from old SM.85 parts) and sell the colection for ... $500.

I bet we'd only be out the cost of the entire project!

Wonder who the marketing genuis was who decided to make a model of the SM.85?

We should send him some counterfeit money as a donation, and ask him to domate it to the local Police fund.

[Romantic Technofreak]

Of course it was never planned to let a Zubr or a S.M. 85 make it over the Atlantic on their own wings. But one funny day one wreck of a Zubr and one of a. S.M. 85 were found side by side on the Maine Coast - placed there from a German submarine. This was done for to cause confusion by making some American scientists to evaluate them instead of doing something useful for the war. The plan was successful - neither about the wrecks nor about the scientists there has been heard anything any more - probably it was so unbelivable what they saw that they are still keeping on evaluating...

The rain argument was discussed in the Luftwaffe general staff, without solution. But when the Japanese miltary attche´ heard about the plan, he meddled, pointing the argument that a conversion of the Japanese far-range balloons for causing woodfires could solve the problem. For this, orange juice should be transported by balloons from a secret base in the Caribbean. The juice should have been released over New York into rain clouds, causing sour rain and so doing the job that conventional orange bombin could not do during rainy weather conditions...

The argument with the 8,8 cm calibre is also correct. When it showed that there were too many oranges left, an inventor came and proposed to fire the surplus oranges from Tiger tanks. The exploding oranges should make so much mess on the met enemy tank that its sight slots become covered and it would become unable to continue fighting!
Said and done, a trial was made. But it happened that the orange already exploded when it left the Tiger´s gun barrel and closed its sight slots...
It was sid that the angry soldiers forced the inventor to clan the Tiger before he disappeared and nothing was heard about him any more...:)

[Romantic Technofreak]

last sentence type "said" and "clean"...[}:)][:I]:(

[GregP]

Romantic Technofreak,

I had no idea the Germans were clever enough to fake out US Intelligence by depositing the remains of Zubrs and SM.85's, probably loaded with rotting Oranges, on our coast. Possibly they even included some rusted 88 mmm Orange Shooters to muddy the watters.

That probably explains why our Intelligence was sorely lacking on the European front. They were busy trying to figure out how a Zubr and an SM.85 made it across the Atlantic on their own with a cargo of Rotten Oranges! That would take up 85% of anyone's Intelligence Bureau.

It's a good thing the U-Boats armed with 88 mm Orange Hurlers got lost and bombarded Haiti instead of New York, or we'd have been finished. Of course, the Hatians were GLAD to get the Oranges, but overloaded their meager medical facilities with people injured from Orange impact. We thought they were faking it all the time!

The fact that they used the American Flag we sent them as a tent cover probably explains the German error. It was located on a beach and was probably mistaken for New York City when viewed through a periscope that was corroded from orange juice, thus degrading the visual accuity.

This citrus thing goes much deeper than we had previously thought. Am I to surmise that Grapefruit were invented by the Germans to increase the effectiveness of a Cirus Attack? That is diabolical, and probably caused an arms race to see who could come up with the first Grapefruit Bombardment Mortar (GBM). I'd bet on Krupps.

It is good that GBMs were not mass-produced before 1945. I can only surmise that the reason they were delayed was that the German workers noticed that Vodka goes well with Grapefruit juice, so the ammunition supply was depleted to a level too low for an all-out attack.

[simon]

I seem to recall that the B-24 was nicknamed the "Banana-boat" apparently due to the the shape of the lower fuselage and bombbay.

With the new light shed by the Citrus Conspiracy which is rapidly unravelling before our very eyes, is it possible that this nickname was not in fact good natured banter by aircrews but a serious security leak indicating an American intent to return the favour to the Germans starting a series of attacks using a whole variety of tropical fruits? Pineapples, Lemons, Oranges, Satsumas even Bananas thrown in as dud's to confuse the specialist Anti-Citrus Engineers, yes who knows what effect Operation "Fruit-Salad" could have had on the German war-machine, had it only come to fruitition... ;)

[GregP]

Thanks for pointing it out Simon. I was trying to keep Romatic Technofrek in the dark about "Operation Fruit Salad" since he IS German. Now that you let the cat out of the bag, I suppose we can inform him of our counter attack plans.

OK Technofreak, just think of the impact on Germany if we had bombed you with tropical fruit, as Simon brought up. Not only would you have to deal with hordes of rampaging Chimpanzees trying to get the bannanas, but even the fabled Tiger Tank would have trouble getting up the smallest incline when running on Bannana Peels. Not many people realize how strong a Chimp is. They can bend a rifle into a pretzel! And all those stuck Tanks would surely tie up a large amount of manpower simply by having to feed the tank crews so they didn't starve before the Bannana Peels could be cleaned away.

Also, the WWII Allied soldiers used to call a hand grenade a "Pineapple." It wasn't for nothing. The REAL Pineapple can do a LOT a damage when falling from 25,000 feet! Many people are killed in this manner every year! The outside is hard and has many sharp protrusions. If it even grazes you, you're probably dead, or at the very least, deeply scratched and hurting since the scratshes are, in all probability, covered in Pineapple juice. Pineapple juice ranks just below Orange Juice in its corrosive abilities. Left untreated, an entire person can corrode away in mere weeks.

I have just touched the sutface of this massive almost-campaign, but it backfired on us.

We accumulated the fruit, stored it in a small, previously unknown California town called Hollywood, and went about the task of building many thousands of FB-47 fruit bombers to haul it. We got the FB-47s built (and they later turned out to be good transports in an alternate role as C-47s), but the local population found the fruit.

Much like the German workers did with the Grapefruit, they found that Vodka went well with the fruit juice. Virtually the entire town got drunk and many lewd acts were committed. While this was happening, a local peeping Tom filmed much of the action through bedroom windows and began releasing the films, creating an entirely new industry: The Hollywood Movie.

Sales were so high that "Operation Fruit Salad" was delayed indefinitely until the profits started to drop. We did this as a way of helping pay for the war. Unfortunately, the proifits never DID drop and are even now at record levels, so "Operation Fruit salad" is still technically ongoing since the orders probably got lost somewhere in Washington in all the paperwork. At least they no longer need to get drunk to make a movie.

We can only hope that by the time Movie profits run down, there won't be enough C-47s around to be converted back into FB-47s and actually carry out "Operation Fruit Salad." The war IS technically over and has been for about 60 years.

Soon, the pilots will probably all be dead or too old to participate anyway, so Germany is, in all probability, safe from this horrible retalliation scheme.

[GregP]

One more point about "Operation Fruit Salad."

Much as the Germans came up with the fiendishly clever GBM (Grepefruit Bombardment Mortar), the Americans came up with the Pineapple Mortar Shell, or PMS.

Since the Pineapple round was actually quite bigger than a Grapefruit, it was VERY effective. We tested it clandestinely and the American male population is, even today, afraid of PMS. Just mention the word and most men run. So you are, again, very lucky not to have been on the receiving end of a PMS attack, like our test subject were.

It begins to look as if the entire character of WWII was changed by Vodka, first with the Citrus Attack Plan and then with Operation Fruit Salad.

As I examine the evidence, it begins to loook more and more like a Communist plot. They secretly smuggled in lareg quantities of Russian Vodka to foil our plans. They probably had many Vodka Destruction (VD) agents in place before the start of WWII, and simply activated them when the time was right. Then, they removed the Russian labels, making the US population think they were drinking homemade liquor, and introduced people to Fruit Juice Cocktails.

The old Communist saying, "We'll bury you ..." was probably coined before WWII when they figured we would all pass out drunk on Vodka and Fruit Juice. Then the Communists could simply walk in, burry us, and take over. The scary thing is, it almost succeeded!

The world in general probably should not learn of this as it would cause a lot of backlash. Best keep it right here in this forum.

[Romantic Technofreak]

I think the information about the German workers is not true, see the following. Surely, the consequences had been horrible, if there had been grapefruits applied, especially combined with alcohol. But the development of the Grapefruit only came up in late 1944, when the supply of Vodka was already very short because the German troops were already driven out of Russia. In this situation, the responsible inventor thought about another source for alcohol. He found that not only gasoline could be converted from wood splinters, but also Vodka! The trials were not completely finished when American troops conquered the institute near Essen in April 1945. When an American soldier intended to arrest the inventor, he was offered a Vodka-Grapefruit, and took it, not knowing that it was made from wood splinters. THIS was the very start of the post-war German-American friendship, NOT the first chewing-gum donated to a German child, NOT the first twinkle of a German Fräulein towards an American soldier...!;)[8D]

I don´t know if there ever was a misled submarine attack on Haiti, although it is obvious what happens to a periscope if it is not flooded by sea water, but by orange juice. But it is said, that, as a measure of desparation, in the last days of the war there was a plan to turn the tides by Voodoo. A German submarine hid itself within a remote Haitian bay, while its crew tried to start negotiations with Voodoo priests. But the plan was not successful. The priests, aware about Hitler´s racial ideology, had different plans. It is said that the German seamen are still ghosting through the Haitian forests - as Zombies![:0][xx(]

Of course, had the citrus conspiracy ever been executed, a severe retalliation from the Allies had to be expected. Had this been successful, there had been far-reaching consequences until today, because contrary to conventional bombing, citrus bombing causes genetic deterioration, thus thwarting Hitler´s racial concept by a facial fate: The facial expression one has turns into the one you have after drinking a glass of lemon juice!:([xx(]

[GregP]

We should PUBLISH this stuff!

The great unwashed public may not know anything about Zubrs and SM.85s as we conniessieurs of obscure aircraft do, but they are CERTAINLY aware of Vodka and Grapefruit juice, unless they are Russian ... the Russians probably haven't yet decided to try messing around with the taste of pure Vidka.

This would make a good television series, huh? Kind of like "Hogan's Heros," only ALL the sides are being deceived at the same time.

Ah well, this could go on indefinitly, or at least until I run out of Vodka and Grapefruit juice, whichever comes first, but this IS an aircraft forum ... right, Taglia?

So, reluctantly, I'll close the door on yet-to-be-revealed chapters of the Secret Fruit War that was disguised as WWII when all fruit delivery schemes failed all sides, resulting in too many drunks. After that, only war was left to the them as they nursed their hangovers.

Glad to hear about the wood-splinter alcohol and Grapefruit juice drink. It's nice to know that our friendship is well founded.

As someone in this forum keeps saying, "It's hard not to like a fighter that runs on bleach and booze!"

Bottoms up.

[andyo2000]

I don't know about the worst bomber, because a lot of them were bad in many ways. But, the worst bombing missions ever run by a bomber? In the middle of the war, Capt. Robert Morgan, piloting the MEmphis Belle, saw Stukas trying to hit the actual B-17s with bombs from above. This was on at least 2 occasions. Trying to bomb planes out of the skies....

As for the worst bomber, I've hear extremely horrifying stories of some of the not-as-well-known Gothas. I hear they started to build some bombers after "success" with gliders. One particular story, I heard a few years ago, about a flight of 3 experimental Gothas. Each held 6 crew if I remember. THen, as they were flying over a city, 2 of the Gothas promptly crashed into buildings. Funny thing is, visibility was noted by many nearby sources as unlimited that day....

[simon]

Not actually that uncommon...

Both the Luftwaffe and the Japanese used air-to-air bombing operationally, although most sources seem to indicatate that it was with limited success, basically they just flew above the formation and dropped time- or proximinity fused bombs (Mostly the former I believe) into formations.

Although it was incredibly difficult to score a hit, or even a near miss, the results of a 500kg phosphorous bomb going off right next to a bomber would almost certainly be the destruction of the plane, and at a time when both airforces were really struggling with training up new crews it represented a chance for an unskilled pilot to shoot down a bomber whilst completely out of reach of the bomber's guns.

As I've said elsewhere to fully appreciate some of the bizarre experiments, aircraft and tactics used by the Luftwaffe and Japan, you have to first understand just how desperate their various positions became.

[andyo2000]

However, the Japanese did this on a much smaller scale, due to their lightweight planes, and thus light bomb loads, lack of good bombs, as opposed to their excellent torpedoes, and extremely new pilots, which there was too many of after their initial air defeats. right?

[GregP]

I have also read about small bombs fitted with parachutes to be dropped above and in front of an attacking bomber formation. This seems bizarre, but probably happened.

If YOU are getting bombed and can;'t figure out anything that works, I bet you'd try almost anything to stop the attacks. They probably did, too.

[Corsarius]

My guess is that if they were proximity fused bombs dropped by parachute, then they likely were much more accurate than Flak.

[andyo2000]

They were probably more accurate than flak, but maybe less damaging. If this was done by the Axis against the Allied, it would never have worked. Allied bombers, though they flew in close formation, at least the U.S. did, had a dense cone of fire, which would have ripped through any kind of advancing slow, heavy bomber. If it was not a heavy bomber, it probably wouldn't have been enough to carry enough bombs to damage enough bombers. And, the Axis powers were not exactly in a bomb surplus, especially with Germany after we pretty much destroyed the Ruhr. But it's still a cool way, and by cool I mean effective if used effectively, to destroy enemy bombers.

[simon]

Along these sort of lines the RAF experimented early in the war, I think it was with Whitley's, with Aerial Mines. Basically the Whitley flew toward the enemy formation but higher and deployed the Mines.

The mines themselves were a parachute and explosive at the top, and a weight at the bottom connected by a very long length of wire. When the enemy bomber hit the wire the sudden jolt released the explosive with slid down the wire and exploded on contact with the enemy aircraft. Apparently it was reasonably effective and is creditted with the destruction of one enemy bomber, but was not considered effective enough to go on beyond operational trials and was quietly dropped.

These could be what you're referring to. Then again they might not... ;)

I'd also say that the lighter planes and bombs of the Japanese were irrelevant since you only need a tiny bomb to down even the biggest bomber, the fact was the Japanese had far fewer (And generally far poorer) planes than the Germans but were trying to deal with the best bombers of the war, whatever they tried beyond the conventional was only likely to meet with limited success at best.

[GregP]

Actually I was wondering about the ability of the Whitley to get above an enemy formation ... seems dubious unless the Whitley was airborne and already near the correct position when the German raid happened ... but I believe you. Stranger things happened in WWII.

[GregP]

So what have we concluded in this thread?

Have we decided the Polish Zubr and the Italian S.M 85 were the worst bombers of WWII?

I think we did, but maybe someone else out there can come up with a better candidate than either the Zubr (fell apart easily) or the Savoia-Marchetti 85 (had a life expectancy of one mission and was then scrapped!).

Any worse bombers out there?

[Notta Brit]

The Polish PZL P.23[xx(][xx(][xx(]

[simon]

In all fairness to it the PZL P.23 whilst ugly, slow, underarmed and unmanouevrable wasn't really bad as such, just obsolete. The hopefully by now infamous Zubr was in a class of it's own when it comes to being a genuinely awful aircraft, surpassing even such disasters as the Fairey Battle and the Blackburn Botha...

[Notta Brit]

Right. It did look like a P-26.