A tale of two bombers

[Wuzak]

In the 1939-41 period there were a couple of twin engined heavy bombers experiencing problems in Europe - the Avro Manchester and the Heinkel He-177.

Both had severe engine problems. The Vulture would overheat and/or fail bearings, the DB606 would just go up in flames.

Both manufacturers had a solution - convert them to 4 engines.

In the case of the Manchester 4 Merlin QECs (designed for the Beaufighter) were quickly adapted, the aircraft proved itself, and as the Lancaster entered production and became a legend.

Heinkel proposed using 4 DB603s. Göring refused, and at one point (1941) banned any mention of the project. Heinkel continued work quietly in the background, but the work progressed slowly because of other priorities. Then Heinkel finally got approval to build the He177B, which would become the He277, in 1943. Soon after production commenced the war situation forced the abandonment of many bomber types in favour of the emergency fighter program. Only 8 were built.

A case of what might have been.....

[GregP]

Actually, the He-177 was a four engine bomber with two propellers ... but I'm positive you knew that already.

If Germany had made the He-277 earlier, things MIGHT have been different, at least for the bomber war.

I'm glad it worked out the way it did ...

[Wuzak]

quote:Originally posted by GregP

Actually, the He-177 was a four engine bomber with two propellers ... but I'm positive you knew that already.


OK then, it had two powerplants, each of which consisted of a pair of engines.......

This would also mean that engines such as the V-3420 would also need to be considered as a single powerplant consisting of two joined engines.

The problem remained with the engines, nevertheless.

[Romantic Technofreak]

(Sorry, have to quote everything from memory).

By early 1944, the coupled engines of the He 177 worked well, and the aircraft were able to perform glide bomb attacks in a distance of about 1000 miles west of Bordeaux.

The solution proved very easy: Placing the engines only a little bit forward left enough air flow to sufficiently cool them. Leaves the question why this was not found out very much earlier.

The trouble is: the He 177 was first foreseen both as level and DIVE bomber. The less good mass distribution of the engines moved forward ended any consideration to use it for dive actions.

It is not true that Göring insisted on the intended use. There are reports telling that he and the RLM resigned from that claim at least by autumn 1942. It was over-ambitious Ernst Heinkel who would not accept any drawback in performance of his miracle plane - and obviously delayed the parallel development of the He 177 B with four separated engines.

Regards, RT

[GregP]

The big issue was that the engine's inside cylinders were VERY hard to get to for maintenance, and so they habitually leaked oil, causing the fires.

I wonder why no one tried to make a rotatable mount for the engines so the engines were able to be rotated by removal of only one ro two bolts? It could be designed and would have allowed MUCH easier servicing of the coupled powerplants.

Still, the 4-engined He 277 was a MUCH simpler answer.

[Trexx]

Written accounts regarding engine fires in the Heinkle 177 invariably mention the gearbox where the driveshafts were coupled.

[Wuzak]

quote:Originally posted by GregP

Still, the 4-engined He 277 was a MUCH simpler answer.


How much trouble could a reliable He277, manufactered in decent numbers and available mid 1942/early 1943, have been for the British and Russians?

[Romantic Technofreak]

Not too much. You don't need only a big fast bomber, you need it in numbers, you need crews and and a working supply chain for it. Especially the latter was troublesome already for the existing He 177.

But the most important thing is strategy. You need overall gain/loss considerations for to decide how to use the aircraft most efficiently. Otherwise the sheer number of possible targets splits up every effort. For Britain and the USSR this would, in my eyes, mean how could the supply lines be hurt in a crucial way. In case of Britain, another BoB for the harbours and shipping off the coast would have been inevitable. OK, He 277s covered by Do 335s in big numbers...

Regards, RT

[curmudgeon]

quote:Originally posted by Romantic Technofreak

Not too much. You don't need only a big fast bomber, you need it in numbers, you need crews and and a working supply chain for it. Especially the latter was troublesome already for the existing He 177.

But the most important thing is strategy. You need overall gain/loss considerations for to decide how to use the aircraft most efficiently. Otherwise the sheer number of possible targets splits up every effort. For Britain and the USSR this would, in my eyes, mean how could the supply lines be hurt in a crucial way. In case of Britain, another BoB for the harbours and shipping off the coast would have been inevitable. OK, He 277s covered by Do 335s in big numbers...

Regards, RT

If they had been available and operational (= crews trained and efficient) in early 1943 then they could have markedly aided the U-boat warfare in the Atlantic. After May 1943 it would have been too late as technology and tactics effectively drove the U-boats from the Atlantic in that month. If the Luftwaffe could have focussed on, and destroyed, the escorts the U-boats could have sunk many more merchantmen ... controlled glide bombs would have needed to be available and effective.
Too many things to align I expect ...

[b-1]

The german Airforce was in love with dive bombing. Even if they had a Big Bomber i dont think they would have used it right. In WW2 the german navy was fighting for long range aircraft. They got very few and many time the Airforce would take them back. Even if the Germans did have BIg long range bombers i think they would have been used to attack the USA. I read In the book "Target America. That most of the long range bombers were going to attack America. Not to say thats all they would attack but that was the main thought of use for them.

[Kutscha]

DB610
http://www10.tok2.com/home2/airshow/Germany06.jpg

DB606
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/Daimler_Benz_DB606_-3.jpg/800px-Daimler_Benz_DB606_-3.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Daimler_Benz_DB606_-2.jpg/800px-Daimler_Benz_DB606_-2.jpg