Grumman F8F Bearcat Climb Rate

[BuzzLightyear]

Hi, new guy here.

Renee Francillon notes in his book "Grumman Aircraft Since 1929" (page 251): "The Bearcat's exceptional climb performance had been demonstrated on 20 November 1946, during the National Air Races in Cleveland, Ohio, when an F8F- flown by Lt. Cdr. M. W. Davenport set an unofficial time-to-height record by reaching 10,000 feet (3,048 m) in 1 minute 34 seconds."

Wow, that is phenominal performance, even if it were a stripped-down race plane. But I'm not so sure it was. It was certainly an F8F-1 as the F8F-2 had yet to fly (1947). And I doubt it was a "stripped race plane" since the F8F-1 was the front line carrier fighter of the day. I would venture to say this record was set with a stock F8F-1 Bearcat - but I'm not 100% sure.

Does anyone have any other information on this feat?

[GregP]

I am not too sure about the 1946 event, but I have data that indicate a stock F8F-2 could climb at an initial reate of 6,300 fpm (1,920 mpm).

The real stripped-down race planes are awesome!

A stock Bearcat weighs 9,000 pounds. Lyle Shelton's weighs in at 8,500 pounds.

A stock Bearca has the Pratt & Whitney R-2800 engine with about 2,400 HP. Lyle's has a Wright R-3350 that puts out over 4,000 HP.

At 5,000 feet a stock bearcat will max out at about 370 MPH. Lyle's can do 540 MPH.

I'll check on the time to climb record ....

[GregP]

The current Bearcat climb record (also a world record for the class) is held by Lyle Shelton in his "Rare Bear." It was set in 1972, and he went from standstill to 3,000 meters in 91 seconds.

That is 9,842.5 feet in 91 seconds from a standing start.

It will take some real power to break that record in the class.

I doubt the claim of the 1946 event since Lyle's Bearcat had the armor stripped off and was putting out something close to 3,800 hp at the time of the record. Any "stock" F8F Bearcat would not put out anywhwere NEAR that HP .... so I doubt the claim ... unless it was done from level flight ... Now that is possible.

[Corsarius]

quote:Originally posted by GregP

The current Bearcat climb record (also a world record for the class) is held by Lyle Shelton in his "Rare Bear." It was set in 1972, and he went from standstill to 3,000 meters in 91 seconds.[/br]


Cripes. 3000 metres or 3000 feet?

I've got to go look at the Me-163 again...

[R Leonard]

It did happen.

This was “Operation Pogo Stick" conducted as a demonstration at the Cleveland Air Race, November 22, 1946. An F8F-1 piloted by Comdr. Bill Leonard set a new time to climb record, from a dead stop to 10K feet in 97.8 seconds, including a 150 foot take off run. Unfortunately, he didn't get to keep the record very long. Lieut. Comdr. Butch Davenport came along about 15 minutes later and set the next new record of 94 seconds, also in an F8F-1 in a 115 foot take off run. Leonard's take off was into an estimated 30 kt head wind, by the time Davenport took off the head wind was over 40 kts. These wind speeds helped to reduce the time on the ground. Both were assigned to TACTEST at the time; Cdr Leonard was TACTEST projects officer. Lt Cdr Davenport was the F8F project officer. The F8F’s used were the standard Navy aircraft, armed, with ammunition. The planes were modified, however, to allow full emergency military power with the landing gear down, something you couldn’t do in a stock airplane due to safety locks.

The rapid climb to altitude was the F8F's bread and butter. The plane was to have been the solution to the kamikaze problem ... rapid climb capability, firepower, speed, and more (better) maneuverability than the F6F or F4U.

I’ve heard folks say that that Leonard and Davenport pretty well trashed the engines on their planes, but that is not so. This was not a spur of the moment stunt ". . . Hey, let’s go up to Cleveland . . . I hear they’re having an Air Race today . . . Maybe we can set a record of some kind". Actually they’d been practicing back at Patuxent with the same planes used in Cleveland, doing (without checking logs) three or four practice runs each. After the demonstration they flew those same planes back to TACTEST.

Somewhere around here I’ve got some pictures of Leonard and his plane & maybe some of Davenport, too.

Regards,

Rich Leonard
(not a coincidence)

[BuzzLightyear]

That's great information, Rich. Thanks.

I've seen and heard of that fantastic performance both on the web and in other sources. Unfortunately, the details provided were limited. I'd always thought, that given the year (1946), that this was no race plane. After all, the F8F-1 was a front-line carrier fighter at this time.

Any information or photos that you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Rowland P.

[R Leonard]

Hmmm

Take a look at these (you might have to cut and paste the entire address into your address line, I'm not sure if they'll direct link)

http://server4.uploadit.org/files2/121203-WNL w-94880 Annotated.JPG

http://server4.uploadit.org/files2/121203-TACTEST Staff Touched Up Names.JPG

http://server4.uploadit.org/files2/121203-F8F-1 94880.JPG

Bureau Number 94880 was the F8F flown by Bill Leonard in Operation Pogo Stick.

Regards,

Rich

[BuzzLightyear]

Hmmm, none of those links work. And can't cut and paste since there are spaces in the URL.

[R Leonard]

Okay, these links should work better.

This one is Cdr. Bill Leonard standing in front of F8F-1 B/N 94880. This was the plane he used in his climb to time try.
http://server4.uploadit.org/files2/131203-WNL_w-94880_Annotated.JPG

This next one shows some of the staff from TACTEST. There's some interesting folks in this photo. Cdr Bill Martin was the guru of night operations doing pioneering work in night strike operations in the Pacific during WWII flying some 400 night attack sorties. Lt Cdr Jim Davidson was the first naval aviator to land and take off the first pure carrier designed jet fighter, the FD-1, from a carrier on July 26, 1946. Bill Leonard was an ace who flew in VF-42, VF-3 and VF-11; after duty at TACTEST he commanded VF-171 when it became the first jet squadron to be carrier qualified. Butch Davenport was also an ace flying in VF-17. The aircraft in the background are (L) a Ryan FR-1 Fireball and (R) a Grumman F8F-1. When they first started looking into achieving a climb to time record they looked into using the Ryan, but decided that the Grumman would be better for the attempt.
http://server4.uploadit.org/files2/131203-Some_TACTEST_Staff.JPG

This is a side view of F8F-1 B/N 94880
http://server4.uploadit.org/files2/131203-F8F-1_94880.JPG

[BuzzLightyear]

Sorry, doesn't look like those links are working. You seem to have spaces in your URLs. They won't link like that.

[R Leonard]

Funny, they work for me.

No spaces, ctually ther's underlines where it looks lime there might be spaces. Oh well, one last try. Running the file names together.
Same order as comments above.

http://www.applepics.com/6/userfiles/41d4b983dab56.jpg
http://www.applepics.com/6/userfiles/41d4b8909dabc.jpg
http://www.applepics.com/50/userfiles/41d4b7f6c351f.jpg

Regards,

Rich

[BuzzLightyear]

Ah, those work! Great pictures, thanks for post.

Now, what does TACTEST stand for?

Also, you said the plane was modified so that Combat Power could be applied while the gears were down. Were there any other tweaks? Any idea what the fuel grade was (probably 115/145)?

And most importantly, while the climb time is "unofficial", who the heck timed it and where is the time recorded? Any ideas?

Thanks.

[GregP]

I have no data to back this up, but if a relatively stock Bearcat was used for this "record," then it probably had something like 1/3 fuel, no ammunition, and most of the aromor removed for record purposes. I note it was also tweaked so WE power could be applied with the gear down. This was not the case with a stock F8F-1 or F8F-2.

There is even a possibility the guns were removed. I can't say.

All I can say for sure is that Lyle Shelton's Bearcat, the current workd record holder, had much more power than a stock F8F, all the armor was removed, and the outer 2 feet or so of wing was also gone. He didn't have a gear retration system (air up and gravity down), and any weight possible was removed.

And he only beat this "record" by 3 seconds?

I don't think so. It just doesn't add up.

Somebody is fibbing or the 1946 planes were special record only aircraft that were claimed to be "stock" for publicity purposes. Ain't no way they were fighter-squadron stock.

The numbers just don't add up. We are missing some data here on aircraft preparation or SOMETHING.

Last, where was the temperature and humidity readings during the 1946 record attempt and what is the MSL elevation of the airport?

Last, did they used Nitrous Oxide? That could account for a lot of things ...

Did they use JATO bottles? Ditto.

We could all log onto the Rare Bear site and ask Lyle about HIS record and the real condition of the aircraft at the time. I know it had the stock R-2800 replace with a Wright R-3350, and that is a BIG jump in available power and torque over a stock aircraft. I am almost certain the propeller was also correctly sized for the engine at the time, but I don't have the prop specs for the world time to climb record.

Currently it wears a one-of-a-kind prop made from 3 baldes of a prop off a Lockheed P-3 Orion. The airfoil was reground (unspecified) and the length and tip shape were modified to fit. Currently the aircraft must take off and land in the 3-point attitude. If the pilot allows the tail to come up, the prop will hit the runway!

[BuzzLightyear]

Maybe it was fitted with the rare and experimental liquid-oxygen injection system :D. Who knows.

I'd like to see the "official" unofficial report on this performance. The F8F was a spectacular climber - no doubt - but SOMETHING must be up to generate that climb time.

[GregP]

You're right, Buzz. As I recall, the F8F Bearcat held the time to climb record for about 10 years or so into the jet age. And it ain't no slouch today.

Power to weight ratio!

Maybe it has antigravity injection or an early form of warp drive.

[Corsarius]

I'm still comparing it to the Me-163.

No way. Just no way. The End.

Maybe they DID do it in the Ryan. While I don't have the specs for it, having the supplementary jet engine would answer a lot of questions. Perhaps they used it in a similar mannner to the MiG-13 and it's "Accellerator"

[R Leonard]

And here the USN and others have gone along, all these years, believing what was recorded as transpiring on a fine fall day in November 1946.

For starts, I suggest that you could crank up your handy-dandy Acrobat Reader and take a look the link below … I’d suggest searching on the word “Cleveland”

http://www.history.navy.mil/avh-1910/PART06.PDF

If you have problems accessing this link, here’s what it says (From “Chronology of Significant Events in Naval Aviation-- 1898 to 1995 - United States Naval Aviation 1910-1995” published by the Naval Aviation History Office):

“20 November At Cleveland, Ohio, an F8F Grumman Bearcat with Lieutenant Commander Merl W. Davenport as pilot, took off in a distance of 115 feet from a standing start and climbed to 10,000 feet in 94 seconds.”

The only part they got wrong was the date … it was 22 November, not the 20th. I suspect that this is where Francillon got his data.

With regard to the status of “World Records” I offer the following:

From Thierry Montigneaux, Assistant Secretary General of the at FAI

“The 'time to climb' record category was proposed to FAI by the National Aeronautic Association of the USA at the June 1950 FAI General Conference. It was then added to the Sporting Code.

”The first mention of a 'time to climb' world record in our books was for a flight made by a British pilot onboard a Gloster Meteor on 31th August 1951.

”No performance set in 1946 could therefore have qualified as an official ‘world’ record, as this category of record did not exist then. However, it may well be that the NAA had accepted a category of ‘national records’ for time-to-climb prior to their June 1950 proposal to FAI.”

So, in 1946 there was no “World Record” class for climb to time.

Then there’s this from Art Greenfield, Director, Contest and Records, National Aeronautic Association:

“It's difficult to determine from the file, but the U.S. national record in 1947 was either ‘Fastest Climb to 10,000 Feet,’ or ‘Time to Climb 3,000 Meters.’ The switch from feet to meters occurred around that time, presumably to gain acceptance from the international community at FAI.

”In any event, both performances were calculated and the time to 10,000 feet was 97.8 seconds; the time to 3,000 meters (9,843 feet) was 96.1 seconds.”

Now whether or not Davenport's time was 94 seconds or 97.8 seconds, in either case the deed was done in an F8F.

And lastly, I took the opportunity, over dinner this evening, to raise this subject of this long ago event with Bill Leonard, the same Cdr. Leonard who made the attempt prior to Davenport’s record. He confirms that the only performance modification to the F8F’s was to bypass the safety lock on the emergency war power setting to allow water injection with the landing gear in the down position. These were standard F8F’s armed, no ammo, armor in place, and loaded with 50% fuel. He also explained the process for timing these flights.

Behind the pilot was installed a piece of equipment, oddly enough, called a “theater”. This was a small instrument board, about one foot square, that had as it’s most important feature a movie camera that recorded time, altitude, and various goings on in the cockpit. This camera was calibrated by NAA personnel for the attempts at the Cleveland Air Show. By reviewing the film it becomes relatively academic to determine the time take to reach 10000 feet or 3000 meters, which ever you wanted to look at. The camera was actuated thusly: The pilot taxied the airplane to his starting point and flipped a switch to activate the camera. At that point, when the pilot releases his brakes, another switch is automatically thrown and the camera starts recording events. Simple, eh? These pilots and airplanes were from TacTest where testing airplane performance was what they did. The list of airplanes they were operating in the 1945-1950 period is lengthy and included German, Japanese, British as well as American. It was not unusual to have this “theater” equipment installed as a matter of course and it was their job to push their mounts to the limit.

I was in error in my earlier post, From Leonard's log book the recorded time in his run up to 10000 feet at Cleveland was 100 seconds with a 30 kt head wind and a take off run of 150 feet.

Rich

[R Leonard]

Mr. Greenfield (see quote in the above post)of the NAA has further advised me:

"The record I quoted was set by LCDR M.W. Davenport in a Bearcat on November 22, 1946, in Cleveland."

RAL

[BuzzLightyear]

HA HA! Great information!

That's an amazing feat.

It's not hard to see how a person could be skeptical of such a climb without more specific evidence. Thanks for providing it.

Since you seem to know Cdr. Leonard, mind asking him about the roll rate of the F8F? I've got some documentation on it that I obtained from the Grumman Historical Society, but a roll chart has not been found by me. I'd love to hear what an actual pilot can tell us about that plane's roll rate.

[J. Bradford]

Have no specific info on the 1946 Cleveland event, however while flying for Service Test at NAS Patuxent in early 1950 I had a "Platnum Spark Plug" evaluation flight in their F8F-1. One of the prescribed maneuvers was to cruise slowly at 1200 RPM at 500', then apply max rated power for two minuttes after which you immediately leveled off and reduced power to 1200 again - obviously trying to place high thermal stress on those plugs. All I can recall about that climb was that I was looking practically straight up trying to maintain climb speed and when I leveled off I was at about 10,500'. Agreed, this was from an in-flight start and I was a pretty green pilot, but it was still one hell of a rate of climb!

[simon]

All I can say Mr Bradford is that it is good to have a genuine Warbird pilot amongst our number!

[BuzzLightyear]

Yes, thanks for that!

[Lightning]

Hi RLeonard,

I don't have my references here, but I know that for the longest time back in the 1950s the F8F had the time-to-10,000-feet record. It was held well into the jet age, as GRegP has already pointed out.

Just curious, but what did you mean by "not a coincidence"?

Also, I get the bigest kick out of your "I wonder what this button does..." sign-off. It just seems to fit the behavior of so many people.

Although it was no laughing matter at the time, there was a fatal air crash at the local airport in Baltimore back in the 1950s, in which the last word spoken over the radio by the pilot was, "Oops".

Regards,
Lightning

[R Leonard]

Lightning -

'Not a coincidence' in that last names are the same. Said Bill Leonard is my father.

Happy New Year!

Rich