Ju-390 flight to Tokyo in 1945

[Simon_G]

Many people doubt the existence of a second flying Ju-390, however I have stumbled across evidence from British journalist Tom Agoston that whilst the Ju-390V1 was derelict at Junkerswerke Dessau (Nov'44 to April'45) a Ju-390 was evacuating SS research material from Silesia to Bodo Norway whilst marked in light blue Sweedish Air Force livery.

Dr Wilhelm Voss gave an interview to Agoston stating that it flew from Bodo to Tokyo on 28 March 1945.

Indications are that some of U-234's cargo for Japan, including two disassembled Me 262 aircraft was offloaded at Christiansand after an underwater collision with another U-boat. U-234 required repairs at Christiansand delaying it's voyage. U-234's radio operator Wolfgang Hirschfeldt wrote in his book that some of the more urgent cargo was going to be flown to Japan.

Reichs Armaments Minister Albert Speer also wrote about a JU-390 flight to Tokyo, "via the polar route," flown by Junkers test pilots.

[Romantic Technofreak]

I don't need solid proofs to believe something, I am satisfied if a certain density of hints concurs. But this here is nothing. No sources are given. If you see an evidence, Simon G, tell it to us where you read that.

About the Ju 390, not only there are not many hints about the existence of a second sample. It is also doubtful that the aicraft was suitable to perform the concerned missions because it suffered from structural problems causing it being unable to carry much more than it's own weight and it's fuel load.

Last, there is nothing known about a Ju 390 arriving in Japan, as there was no reason to destroy it because there was no special Japanese interest not to let it fall into American hands. Or did it disappear in the Arctic, like the Bolkhovitinov DB-A?

Regards, RT

[ChrisMcD]

RT

There appears to be a lively debate about the second Ju 390 and what it got up to

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3926587

Pprune is usually fun (pity they dropped the humour pages)

http://www.cronaca.com/archives/001901.html

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread264606/pg3#pid4028347

[Simon_G]

quote:
There appears to be a lively debate about the second Ju 390 and what it got up to


.. but not necessarily a well informed debate.

quote:I don't need solid proofs to believe something, I am satisfied if a certain density of hints concurs. But this here is nothing. No sources are given. If you see an evidence, Simon G, tell it to us where you read that.

I already gave some of the sources above:


Source #1
quote:Dr Wilhelm Voss gave an interview to Agoston

Source #2
(Hitler's armaments minister in his book "Inside the Third Reich")
quote:Reichs Armaments Minister Albert Speer

Source #3
quote:U-234's radio operator Wolfgang Hirschfeldt

Source #4
(service course sheet available at Berlin Document Centre)for interrogation of SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Rudolf Schuster attached to SS-WVHA Amt-V zbV

[Simon_G]

Richard Leonard likes to quote from a book called "Die großen Dessauer: Junkers Ju 89, 90, 290, 390. Die Geschichte einer Flugzeugfamilie" which claimed the aircraft would not even be able to take off.

Those people claim that the take of weight for a New York mission must have been 72 tons when the aircraft's maximum take of weight they claim was 45 tons.

That claim is based upon flawed weight calculations of people who have never been pilots, or researched the fuel consumption.

Romantic Technofreak said:
quote:It is also doubtful that the aicraft was suitable to perform the concerned missions because it suffered from structural problems causing it being unable to carry much more than it's own weight and it's fuel load.

Well I don't blame you for thinking this Technofreak because there is a lot of rubbish out there.

The problem with your claim is that an actual Ju-390 pilot, Hans Pancherz told the Daily Telegraph in September 1969 of his flight to South Africa. From Italy this was at least a 6000nm flight.

Real fuel consumption

The fuel consumption of the BMW 801D is known quite accurately. At take off power the Ju-390 would have burned around 192 US gallons, or 1,152 lb per engine for take off and climb to 19,000ft (at full power). In practice most aircraft will reduce to 75% power in the climb.

Assume full power however and the aircraft will consume 6,912 lb to reach 19,000ft.

Once at altitude the throttles would be relaxed to 1700 rpm and 55 US gallons per engine, or 330 lb per hour in total for the cruise.

Any pilot will know that fuel for the cruise is much less than the fuel for cruise. In Jet airliners fuel flow for cruise is about 30-35% the flow at take off.

The Ju-390 had 32 hours of endurance at 248 knots. 31 hours of flight at 330 lb/hr equals 10,230 lb of fuel for 7688 nautical miles range.

Centre of gravity is not an issue since the extra fuel was all carried in wing centre tanks close to the centre of gravity. The extra length of a Ju-390 rather than decreasing stability in fact improves it by lengthening the movement arm of the elevator.

Total mission fuel to take off, reach 19,000ft and fly 7688 nm was 17,142 lb. Operating Empty Weight was 86,900 lb for a combined weight of 104,042. MTOW was 166,100 lb.

In any case Hans Pancherz published the range payload charts for his Ju-390 some years ago, so why are people disputing it ?

[r16]

the primary reason of the 390 story is that it allows "Nazis to survive." It is hugely political and some twisted minds like the stories . I know ; because I am some other sort twisted mind .

my personal belief the top tier of Nazis did not make it out of Europe - at least in 1945- and while the Germans had the technology to fly to South America I sincerely doubt that the ramifications of any sort are true .

one of the very first of my not many posts here involved the much more realistic Ju-290 flight to New York , so believe me I don't oppose the 'V2 on a mere whim .

[Simon_G]

Well r16, I have to respect your abhorrence of the Nazi ideology, but that's a very odd reason for opposing trying to establish historical facts about the Ju-390. I applaud your honesty for it though.

I don't subscribe to Nazi ideology. I don't admire them, or respect them and my father fought them at Arromanches on D-day. Before D-day my father was torpedoed in the Atlantic by U-653.

Nor do I believe that Hitler survived and lives in tunnels in Antarctica like some of the weirder beliefs out there.

On the other hand it is a fact that senior Nazis were trying to arrange their escape and could read the writing on the walls.

History is a witness that some Nazis did escape like Leon Dalgrelle, Erich Prebke, Adolph Eichmann and Klaus Barbie... the list goes on.

One of the reasons why I do dig to uncover the Ju-390 facts are probably very similar to the reasons why you don't like me to.

I personally feel the world was betrayed that certain people like Kammler were never brought to justice. I feel even more betrayed to learn that they possibly cut deals with the rich and the powerful in the Allied camp to be allowed to escape.

Both the United States and Russia fought to reap the benefits of nazi science and research. Kammler controlled all of that and appears to have manipulated scientists like pawns to buy his escape.

When I discover that possibly people like Kammler may have negotiated their freedom before the fall of Germany in 1945, I feel even more angry. The CIA basically forgave much of the SS in exchange for the Nazi spy networks in eastern Europe and Russia.

Senior Nazis also betrayed the German people whom they misled into a terrible war. Goering and Himmler secretly negotiated with the west. Hitler secretly negotiated with Stalin through the Japanese.

Personally I do believe that one or two senior Nazis did escape. Kammler would be the top of that list for me, but that's a difference of opinion I can live with.

I feel like those who fought in the war against the Nazis were betrayed by those in the Allied nations who allowed Nazis to escape.

I have no time for the duplicity of nations which are probably still sitting on secrets to protect senior Nazis who did escape. that's why piecing together the Ju-390 story is important to me.

Sometimes I get the facts wrong. Sometimes I have to revise my ideas. It's like trying to piece together broken pottery.

It's ironic that we both dislike the Nazi ideology, but we just express it in a different way.

Re the debate about the Ju-390 V2 the Ju-390 V1 was abandoned and derelict at dessau from November 1944 without propellers, yet there are numerous credible sightings of the Ju-390 V2 until May 1945 when a Polish diplomat witnessed it being dismantled at a German ranch in Paysandu Province in Uruguay.

Argentine intelligence reports recently declassified corroborate the Polish reports.

[r16]

my interest in any Junkers that might flown extra long range comes from the fact I am an established what iffer , I like to invent explanations for what seems unreasonable and I definitely do not want to stop anyone that can really unearth the double crossings of the Allied goverments , simply to see how accurate is my ranting

what I am saying is that the '390 will not take you anywhere ; the V-2 most probably did not exist .

[ChrisMcD]

quote:
An actual Ju-390 pilot, Hans Pancherz told the Daily Telegraph in September 1969 of his flight to South Africa. From Italy this was at least a 6000nm flight.


This sounds like a good story. Did he land? What was he up to?

[Simon_G]

Well at the moment an aviation museum at Bodo, Norway is investigating the subject for me.

I also have the University of Ningxia investigating Ju-290 flights to Manchuria.

Thing is I have 5 different sources confirming the existence of a flying Ju-390 when the only Ju-390 acknowledged to exist was derelict at Dessau, so I disagree that there is evidence of a second Ju-390.

What would be really neat is if I could get some people investigating the German owned ranch at Paysandu for Ju-390 parts.

Here's some pictures of Bodo's airport:
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/502156.jpg
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/424955.jpg

[ChrisMcD]

Hi Simon_G

You probably know about the final flight of the Ju 290A-6.

But just in case; "The sole Ju 290A-6 was initially conceived as a pressurized personnel transport for Hitler's personal flight. Some pressurization trials were conducted at Prague but this scheme was abandoned at an early stage, and the aircraft was completed as an unpressurized 50-passenger transport. This aircraft was eventually taken on the strength of I/KG 200 at Finsterwalde for special transport operations and, in the last week of April 1945, flown to Barcelona by Hauptmann Braun, the original Staffel-Kapitan of LTS 290 who subsequently served with FAGr 5 and, with the disbandment of that Gruppe, joined Kampfgeschwader 200"

[Red Admiral]

There is so much untruth and simple lies surrounding the Germans in WWII that it'll be impossible to prove anything.

Much more impressive was the flight of an Italian Savoia-Marchetti SM.75 from Rome to Tokyo (albeit with a few stops in China and Eastern Europe.

[ChrisMcD]

Hi Red Admiral,
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________
There is so much untruth and simple lies surrounding the Germans in WWII that it'll be impossible to prove anything.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
Very true, but the Ju 290 was used by the Spanish Airforce for years - AFAIK nobody has come up with a passenger list for it's last flight under it's previous ownership!

What it does show is that there were a lot of flights going to strange places at that time

Didn't you post some photos of the SM. 75 in Manchuria?

[Wuzak]

One of my books suggest that the Ju 380 V2 was never flown after the entire project was abandoned.