He177 Data

[Froonp]

Hello,

I'm new here, and I'm interested in WWII planes.
I used to play the Avalon Hill Air Force boardgame ages ago, and I'm in the process of typing the details of the modifications we made to the game at the time to share them on my Air Force website.
For that, I'm looking for detailled specs about the He177 plane, particulary the defensive armament. I have a hard time finding this, so I try my luck here.
Thanks for reading.
Cheers,

Patrice

[BuzzLightyear]

OK, hope this helps

He-177A-5

Powerplant:
2x Daimler-Benx DB 610A-1/B-1(A-1 is the port engine, B-1 is the starboard engine) 24 cylinder double engines each rated at 2,170 kW/2,950 hp on takeoff and 2,280 kW/3,100 hp at 2,100 m altitude; four bladed VDM variable pitch propellers with diameter of 4.5m.

Typical armament:
1x 7.9mm MG 8li with 2,000 rounds flex-mounted in nose
2x 13mm MG 131 with 750 rounds each in remotely operated forward station in dorsal fuselage
1x 13mm MG 131 with 750 rounds in electrically power aft gun position on dorsal fuselage
1x 20mm MG151/20 with 300 rounds flex-mounted in the forward underfuselage gondola
2x MG 8l1 with 2,000 rounds each flex-mounted in the aft underfuselage gondola
1x 20mm MG 151/20 with 300 rounds in the aft fuselage tail

Typical payload:
Internal
16x 50 kg plus 4x 250 kg = 1,800 kg payload, or
2x 500 kg bombs = 1,000 kh payload
External
2x LMA III aerial mines, or
2x LT 50 aerial torpedos, or
2x Hs 293 glide bombs, or
2x FX 1400 Fritz X free-fall bombs

Performance:
Max speed (27,200 kg) 400 lm/h @ sea level, 490 km/h @ 6,000 m

Time to Climbs:
3,000m in 10 minutes
6,000m in 39 min
Service ceiling 8,000m

Weights:
empty 17,210 kg
empty equipped 18,940 kg
normal takeoff weight loaded 27,200kg
max takeoff weight 31,000 kg

Dimensions:
wingspan 31.44m
length 22.02m
height 6.67m
wing area 102m sq


(Source: "The History of German Aviation: Bomber and Recon Aircraft, 1935 to Present", Cescotti, Schiffer Books)

[Froonp]

Thanks a lot, sure it helps !

Now, to go deeper, if it is possible, what about the crew ?
Who manned all those guns ? I read that the crew is 5 including 2 pilots.
So that's 3 guys for 6 gun stations. Who manned them ?

And finally, any clue about the firing arcs and elevation of all those guns ?
Can both dorsal turrets fire directly above ?
Can both ventral gondola guns fire directly below ?
Is the rear turret alike the B-17 one that is it can fire only directly behind (in the 5-7 O' Clock arc) or more like the Lancaster one (in the 4 to 8 O' Clock arc).

Any maybe, any clue about the differences between an A-5 and the first A-1 and A-3 about the defensive guns ?

Anyway, thanks a lot, it's already very kind of you to have brought all those data here.

Cheers,

Patrice

[simon]

From my sources the differences are:

He177A-1/R-1
Top Speed: 510 Kmh / 317 mph
Ceiling: 22,965ft
Range: 1,200km / 746 Miles WITH MAXIMUM BOMB LOAD
Sizes and Weights roughly comparable, but I can include these later if you want.

Bombload, roughly equal, however bear in mind the service dates for weapons and aircraft may differ

Armament as A-5/R2 but tail cannon replaced by 13mm Mg131, ammunition unknown.

There was literally a huge amount of variants for most luftwaffe aircraft and the Greif was no exception, versions including a tankbuster for the Russian front equipped with a 75mm Pak40 cannon in the nose, the best place to ask for more information may be www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org, under the Luftwaffe section, if they don't know they can certainly point you in the direction of someone who does.

The Tail turret I believe was B-17 style, going purely by pictures I believe the dorsal turret had a full upwards arc, but the barbette didn't, lastly the crew would be split between gun positions as circumstances dictated, it appears going by crew no. to gun position ratios only the British/Commonwealth and US indulged in the luxury of one crewman per gun position! For the most part crew could be interchanged midflight.

Good luck, if you have any information that is to the contrary please post it in a reply, I fully admit to being far from infallible, so appreciate any corrections to the information I have. I do have in a book a cut-away drawing of the He177 and will contact you with details if time allows.

Good luck again,

Simon.

[Romantic Technofreak]

Hello Froonp,

being a German I should have known something, but it turned out that I didn´t and my literature said nothing useful. So I asked your question about the distribution of crew and arms in a German forum and got a satisfying answer. Here it is:

The He 177 A-5´s crew are six men. Here they are with their weapons:

1. Pilot - none
2. Bomb aimer and temporary co-pilot - forward firing weapons (hand-controlled MG 81 forward-upward and remote-controlled MG FF forward-downward)
3. Navigator and radio operator - remote controlled "B1"-turret
4. Mechanic - rear/downward firing MG
5. Gunner for the hand-controlled "B2"-turret
6. Rear gunner

[GregP]

One last point, already made elsewhere in this forum ...

The He 177 also had great performance as a bonfire. It could erupt into spontaneous flames at almost any time the engines were running. This was due to an unsound mechanical design of the engine coupling.

When it was good, it was very, very good. When it was bad. it was deadly to its own crew.

But I suppose you KNEW that.

The Germans made some WONDERFUL aircraft in WWII, and the He 277 might have been one of them (an He 177 airframe with 4 conventional engines in separate nacelles on extended wings to handle the 4 props), but the He 177 was NOT one of their better efforts.

A great concept marred with flawed execution. That happened to a LOT of good ideas, so the He 177 is in some good company in that respect.

[Froonp]

Thanks for all those details.
I could make a more precise picture of this beast for my game, many thanks to you all !!!!

Patrice

[GregP]

Remember to add the ability to catch fire unexpectedly. This happened to about every 4th aircraft or so.

Sometimes they made it to the ground before it burned anything vital ... sometimes not.

If I were on a He 177 crew, I'd want to be high enough to parachute or low enough to land!