Night Fighter Contest

[Romantic Technofreak]

I think it is overdue to start a concentrated discussion about night fighters. For pre-selection, I only take three candidates:

1. De Havilland D.H. 98 Mosquito:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/dehamosqbfn.html

2. Heinkel He 219 Uhu
http://www.jg53-pikas.de/Uhu_eng.htm

3. Northrop P-61 Black Widow
http://avions.legendaires.free.fr/p61.php
Sorry to choose a French site, but best pictures available here.

Please, gentlemen, I ask you for well-thought arguments: Which of these is the best to track, pursue and shoot down an enemy warplane at night?

Tell me if you disagree about that pre-selection. I only took the best ones of a country, so the Bf 110 as inferior to the He 219 is excluded. And the Nakajima J1N Gekko is way below the performance of the three listed above, although it managed to shoot down B-29, and I don´t know how it could do that, when the maximum speed of the B-29 is about 50 kph faster than the J1N´s.

[robert]

I think it comes down to a two-horse race between the Mosquito and the Black Widow. I'm firmly convinced that the He 219 was one of the more overrated aircraft of the war.

The Heinkel He 219 is almost universally lauded as the best German night fighter of WW2, and is called by some the best night fighter produced by any nation during the war. The He 219 was hindered by the indifference of the German authorities, and in the case of Erhard Milch, outright hostility. After many delays, the He 219 was finally ordered into production, and in the limited combat it saw, established an excellent reputation. Yet the performance of the He 219 may not actually have been as good as many say. Gebhard Aders, in his book History of the German Night Fighter Force, claims that Heinkel deliberately overstated the performance of the He 219 in an attempt to gain orders:

"Though the He 219 is recognized by all as the most efficient German night fighter type, its performance was not as extraordinary as is often claimed. In fact, the type never achieved even the values given in its manual. For instance, with almost full fuel tanks and full armament the He 219 could not get above 8000 m (26,250 ft) altitude, and passed the 10,000 m (32,810 ft) mark only at an equipped weight of about 10 tons - in other words with almost empty tanks and nearly all ammunition used up. And then it hung in the sky like a 'ripe plum', as the pilots used to say, and would stall at 5 m/sec (16.4 ft/sec) from a normal blind flying turn. Level performance was also less than it appeared: the He 219 could only reach its 'paper' maximum speed of 605 km/h (376 mph) if no night fighting equipment was fitted. With Lichtenstein and engine flame dampers the maximum was a good 45 km/h (28 mph) less at 6,200 m (20,340 ft) altitude and fell to about 500 km/h at 8,200 m (311 mph at 26,900 ft) - much too slow to catch a Mosquito at full power. Until June 1944 only two Mosquitos are known to have been shot down by He 219s."

In Wings of the Luftwaffe, Royal Navy test pilot Eric Brown (a man who probably knows more about the flight characteristics of WW2 aircraft than any other pilot) gives his impressions of the He 219A-2:

"I found no opportunity to fly the later DB 603G-powered He 219A-5, but imagine that it did not display any markedly different handling or performance characteristics to those of the A-2...

...I had read German reports that, fully loaded, the He 219 enjoyed an ample surplus of power and that an engine cutting immediately after take-off or during the approach presented little danger. There was, it is said, an instance of a pilot making an emergency take-off on one engine with his undercarriage locked in the 'down" position and with flaps fully extended! If there is any truth in this last report, I can only say that for this extraordinary feat the aircraft must have been equipped with JATO and have had a very long runway indeed! In my view, the Heinkel fighter, certainly in its He 219A-2 version - was decided underpowered. An engine failure on take off must have been a very nasty emergency to handle at night as, below 137 mpg (220 km/h) the aircraft was difficult to hold straight...

...The rate of climb was certainly unimpressive...A full power run at 20,000 ft revealed somewhat sluggish acceleration and a top speed of 378 mph (608 km/h), which was somewhat below the German handbook figures...

...From my experience with the He 219A-2, I would say that this Heinkel fighter's reputation was somewhat overrated. It was, in my view, basically a good night fighter in concept but if suffered from what is perhaps the nastiest characteristic that any twin-engined aircraft can have - it was underpowered. This defect makes take-off a critical maneuver in the event of an engine failing and a landing with one engine out can be equally critical. There could certainly be no overshooting with the He 219 in that condition. Furthermore, it appeared to be short on performance to deal with the Mosquito, a task which was, in part, its raison d'etre."

These views are 180 degrees different from the gushing words we often hear about the He 219. Admittedly the up-engined He 219A-7 was probably a considerable improvement, but these arrived too late and in too few numbers to make much difference to the RAF night bombing campaign, none being delivered until December 1944. From Aders and Brown's testimony, the He 219A-2/5 was not all it is cracked up to be, and certainly not superior to the Mosquito...

[GregP]

I must admit, Robert's negative comments about the He 219 are the first I've seen in that light. Everything else I read about it says it was absolutely tops as a night fighter. If I'd listen to ANYONE about a WWII plane, it would be Eric Brown.

Still, almost everyone else lauds great praise on the He 219, so I'm left wondering about Brown's comments considering the volume of other, positive commentrs available about the subject. It is possible the "wonderful" comments I have read were almost all from German pilots (makes sense) who never flew the Mosquito night fighter variant. Brown did. If so, then the He 219 was clearly the class of the German night fighters of WWII, the Me 262 notwithstanding.

Of the 3 you pick, I'd go with the Northrop P-61 as the best. Its speed is the same or slightly better than the Mosquito, it is slightly heavier armed (12.7 mmm vs 7.7 mm MG ... both had 4 x 20 mm cannons), and if memory serves, the radar was a bit better.

In all fairness, the P-61 and Mosquito were never direct competitors, and I'd be pleased with either one ... they're that close. My choice is based on the fact that the P-61 could haul more weight and had a better radar. In a pinch, I also believe the R-2800 radial is more reliable, better suited to harsh conditions, and is easier to service than the Merlin. This is based purely on the fact that almost all aircraft in the Pacific theater were radial powered. There has to be a reason, and reliability stands out as primary.

[BuzzLightyear]

I agree with GregP in his entirety.

I'd choose the P-61 as well. It was designed specifically as a night fighter. It's SCR-720 air intercept radar was probably the best of any nation during the war. It's engines were reliable. It was a docile aircraft to fly with good handling characterisitcs. The P-61A and B had good performance, certainly acceptable for a night fighter. The P-61C's performance was exceptional with an outstanding rate of climb. It was a very manueverable aircraft, even if is was rather hard to roll.

All in all, it was a very well balanced aircraft.

[simon]

The Mosquito NF MkII was indeed an altogether more primitive nightfighter than the Blackwidow (Which benefitted from some 4 years more development than the humble Mossie!), however the radar on the MkXIXs was of a more advanced nature than the MkIIs, and I am led to believe the installation was deliberately designed to be interchangable with it's US contemporaries.

Many of the wartime production P-61s did not infact have the extra 4 .50 cals in the dorsal barbette, although by VJ day the problems with this had been ironed out and post-war examples were equipped with them, so for the most part during the war the P-61 would be armed mainly with just the 4 20mm cannon and 13 seconds of fire.

Interestingly the RAF dispensed with the extra .303s for the Mosquito MkXIX, apparently because 4 20mm cannon with 20 seconds of fire were regarded as more than sufficient to down an enemy aircraft.

Romantic Technofreak, don't forget that the B-29s the J1N Gekkos were after would be hampered by carrying typically between about 10,000 and 20,000 lbs of bombs (roughly 4,500 - 9,000 kg), that kind of thing can slightly inhibit an aircraft's performance!

Overall I like the He219 best, however my choices would be the D.H.98 Mosquito in either of the NFII or MkXIX configurations (Since the MkII was available from Spring 1941 and in service by Winter 1941) for Europe. For the Pacific I would definitely pick the Blackwidow, not just for servicability of it's engines but also the metal structure fairs far better in the tropics than the wood and canvas of the Mossie.

Wasn't there supposed to be a nightfighter version of the Petlyakov Pe2? Other contenders have to be the first radar equipped nightfighter, the Bristol Blenheim, the Beaufighter I believe also had an early career as a nightfighter, and of course the Ta154 doesn't even get a mention, neither does the Fw187 ;), both of which could be included as the best nightfighters that never were...

[Corsarius]

Damn, Simon.

Why do you always get the jump on me?

I was going to suggest the Blenham (half in jest) as a) it was one of the first and b) I loved the look of the 'short nose' blenham. Don't ask me why, I simply find it to be an attractive aircraft. The longer nose, while more capable, made it look 'typically British', especially with the wierd indentation across one side.

Oh all right. If I have to choose, I'll take an Uhu in my squadrons any day out of that lot, with the ever-capable mosquito right behind in case of manufacturer's delay.

Reasoning: My sources indicate that the Uhu was designed with 'schraege musik' in mind, and this was utilised to great effect, with up to 5 bombers being shot down in the space of a few minutes. Also, the He219 was able to intercept and destroy pathfinding mosquitos, something that had been nigh-impossible up until then. So is this plane better than the Mossie? Yes, and no. But I'll take it as my dedicated nightfighter, thank you very much.

[robert]

quote:Originally posted by Corsarius
Also, the He219 was able to intercept and destroy pathfinding mosquitos, something that had been nigh-impossible up until then.

What are your sources for this? My sources, quoted in my post above, say that the He 219 was in fact incapable of intercepting the Mosquito on any sort of consistent basis.

[simon]

There was a specially designed version intended for use against the Mosquitoes. It had stripped down equipment and armament reduced to 2 x 20mm Mg151, I guess the weight saving when compared to all those 30mm cannon they usually carried made the difference. As with the He219 in general though, it would have been used in only small numbers.

[Romantic Technofreak]

I already heard "underpowered" about the He 219. But the plane was equipped with DB 603 engines, that belonged to the strongest Germany had. The right expression might be "overweight". Remember my upper limit in the Medium Bomber Contest, max. 9 metric tons? Although being a fighter, the He 219 does not meet it. It is approximately 3 metric tons heavier than the bomber widely considered inferior as night fighter, the Do 217?!

Also, I have to admit I have a faible for the P-61, it is just an airplane that makes a stronger impression than many others. Especially I like the equipment with fixed and moveable offensive armament, looks like being the solution of the unsolvable problems that occur concerning the concept of the Defiant. But if the war had went on, how can you pursue opponents like the Nakajima G8N Renzan with it (my sources say top speed for the Renzan is 592 kph and for the Black Widow 589 kph)? O.K., the bomber´s belly is full of heavy bombs on its approach, but the night fighter, see Robert´s argumentation about the He 219, also carries yet unconsumed ammunition and fuel. So, especially for the Pacific theater, it might have been necessary to make use of the modest Mossie, hoping it does not get rotten before receiving some Renzan kills...;).

For Simon: With the Ta 154 Kurt Tank came back to the FW 187 airplane concept, but this time he used a shoulder wing configuration. But the protruding engines in this kind of construction prevent any side view for the pilot! Because of this, the Ta 154 was widely rejected by the German nightfighter pilots, and that is why I did not mention it here, not the unavailability of the suitable glue.

For Robert and Corsarius: It is a wide-spread fairy tale that the He 219, short after Streib´s first successfull sortie, shot down a number of six Mosquitoes. I asked this already in a German forum and got an English answer from somebody who has a list about Mosquito losses, and none fit properly to the possible time and area. The He 219 did not really, if ever, become operational before spring of 1944, during its short career it confirmedly shot down 10 Mosquitoes, the first one on May 6th (source is the book of Roland Remp, should be also available in English). If they were pathfinders, I don´t know, neither if they had not already engine trouble or whatever. Remember the Mosquito later was even used as escort night fighter, an unique duty no other type performed during WWII, and it could not be stopped, by the He 219´s and the othet German types, until the Me 262 night fighter version came up. I did not include it here because this would have been too unfair for comparison.

And one remark for Corsarius: I have a little personal connection with the Bristol Blenheim (SPELL!), because it is named after the village of Blindheim on the Danube, where the Duke of Marlborough fought his famous victory in the year 1705, and this village is located not very far from my little home town. You cannot excuse yourself by coming from "down under" and not knowing about rural German landscapes, because another town in this region even has a twinning with Wagga-Wagga, so Australia is well recognized there...!:)

[simon]

For Simon: With the Ta 154 Kurt Tank came back to the FW 187 airplane concept, but this time he used a shoulder wing configuration. But the protruding engines in this kind of construction prevent any side view for the pilot! Because of this, the Ta 154 was widely rejected by the German nightfighter pilots, and that is why I did not mention it here, not the unavailability of the suitable glue.

Yeah, I know, I was just spoiling for a fight again... :D, hell you won last time, it's only fair I get a rematch!

If the war, especially in the Pacific had dragged on personally I would have largely expected the G8M to be employed in daylight attacks against Allied positions, especially shipping. However for a night engagement the Blackwidows would likely have already have used up a large amount of their fuel by the time they came across the bomb and possibly fuel laden G8Ms, especially if operating in the intruder role, alternatively they may have been facing tired crews returning from missions low on fuel and possibly damaged aircraft as well.

By day or night I think the G8Ms would have been relatively easy pickings, especially considering the minimal training of their crews and especially since if the war continued to drag on and an invasion of the Japanese mainland became a necessity, by that point there would probably have been Tigercats, Lightning Nightfighters and Twin Mustangs starting to see service...

[Romantic Technofreak]

O.K., Simon, personal question:
You are commander of a night fighter wing in the Pacific theater of early 1945. You command two squadrons, one is equipped with Mosquitoes and one with Black Widows. Yor radar operator informs you about a flock of intruders, approaching quickly on a speed "never measured before, probably Ritas, Sir!" Which squadron do you send up? Both, of course. But which one do you expect to come back with more G8N kills?

[simon]

Interesting question...

If I had Mosquito NFXIXs and the none-barbetted Blackwidows I would expect the split to be fairly even between the two, with maybe a slight edge to the Blackwidows. If I my P-61 squadron was one of the few that had the barbettes, even those that were welded in place facing forwards, I would expect the edge to go slightly more in favour of the P-61s just due to the benefit of slightly heavier firepower.

Depending on how many aircraft were incoming and what the situation was like militarily it may be prudent to only scramble one squadron, in which case I would send the P-61s up first to deal with these bandits and hold the Mosquitoes in reserve for any subsequent raids, otherwise if I scrambled both I would run a very serious risk of being caught with my entire force on the ground refueling and re-arming and nothing available to send after them. The reason I would use the P-61s first is that I believe the ammunition in terms of Rounds per gun was lower for the P-61s than the Mosquitoes, so the Mosquitoes if scrambled to intercept a subsequent raid would have a greater endurance until their guns ran dry, giving the ground crews longer to re-arm the Blackwidows.

[Romantic Technofreak]

Normally it is not so easy to get a consentual conclusion, but this time I think it is clear that the P-61 won the game. Salute!

[pmjwright]

Got a chance to read up on the Mossie lately, and found a little tidbit in Mosquito: The Wooden Wonder Aircraft of WW II by Joe Holliday.

The Feb. 1945 issue of Skyways magazine featured the Mosquito. According to LtCol Nathaniel F Silsbee, USAAF, "Almost certainly the two best [night fighters] are the Mosquito Mk VI and the Black Widow P-61, and recent tests in England between these two show little to choose between them in all-round performance. Night fighter versions of Germany's Ju-88 and Me. 110 and Navy-s PV-2 have also been highly effective."

In the same magazine, military analyst Hanson Baldwin rated the Mosquito best night fighter.

[Tony Williams]

I suspect that part of the reason for the praise lavished on the He 219 might have been the night-fighters the Luftwaffe had to compare it with: the Bf 110 and the Ju 88....

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk

[Johnny G]

quote:Originally posted by Romantic Technofreak

I think it is overdue to start a concentrated discussion about night fighters. For pre-selection, I only take three candidates:

1. De Havilland D.H. 98 Mosquito:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/dehamosqbfn.html

2. Heinkel He 219 Uhu
http://www.jg53-pikas.de/Uhu_eng.htm

3. Northrop P-61 Black Widow
http://avions.legendaires.free.fr/p61.php
Sorry to choose a French site, but best pictures available here.

Please, gentlemen, I ask you for well-thought arguments: Which of these is the best to track, pursue and shoot down an enemy warplane at night?

Tell me if you disagree about that pre-selection. I only took the best ones of a country, so the Bf 110 as inferior to the He 219 is excluded. And the Nakajima J1N Gekko is way below the performance of the three listed above, although it managed to shoot down B-29, and I don´t know how it could do that, when the maximum speed of the B-29 is about 50 kph faster than the J1N´s.





This argument is flawed as the Mosquito operated from 1941 untill the end of the war, but the P-61 and especially the He 219 were both late entries.

[Olympic]

I understand that in Osprey's book of P-61 units, there's reference to a fly-off between a P-61A and a Mosquito NF in middle 1944. If I can recall the P-61 comprehensively outpaced,outclimbed and outmaneuvered the Mossie.
Does anyone have more information on this event.

[panzerjager88]

my vote goes to the mossie by far mainly for reasons Johnny pointed out...

the P-61 arrived so late as to made a real drop in the bucket contribution...IIRC was the environment it flew in so target poor that the craft often reverted to ground attack and was the overall efficiency in terms of TVs and TVS vs Losses somewhat lackluster?

the better competition IMO would have been

Mossie
Bf-110
Ju-88
Beaufighter

[:p]

the characteritics of a nightfighter are drastically different than a day fighter

classic aero factors (ie maneuverability) are rather irrelevant, as well as speed in the anti-bomber role judgeging by the effectiveness of the german med bomber types in the night fighter role

IMO radar quality, firepower, accel and speed are the salient factors

[Kutscha]

In the Pacific scenario mentioned, the Mossie would have got at least 2 e/a before the P-61 arrived on the scene since it was at least 30mph slower.

Some read those 21C tek web sites to much. The He219 maybe got 10 Mossie bombers. The A-5, according to an expert (he is writing a book that should be published soon), was never produced. The top speed one sees of 416mph was acheived with a striped down a/c > no radar antena, no exhaust shrouds, some weapons removed. The A-6 was to be the Mossie hunter. Even Streib's claim of 5 Lancs is bogus for he only got 1 Lanc, the other 4 were Hallies. (see Tony Wood's site for LW claims) The He 219 was so bad that some units refused to fly it, preferring to continue to use their Ju 88s.

[Tony Williams]

quote:Originally posted by panzerjager88

the characteritics of a nightfighter are drastically different than a day fighter

classic aero factors (ie maneuverability) are rather irrelevant, as well as speed in the anti-bomber role judgeging by the effectiveness of the german med bomber types in the night fighter role

IMO radar quality, firepower, accel and speed are the salient factors


The speed of a night-fighter is only important in relation to the speed of its targets. It needs to have a significant speed advantage to close on a contact, but against a lumbering Lanc, it still doesn't have to be too fast. Against a Mossie is another matter entirely; the Mossie would have been long gone before a Ju 88 got to where it used to be...

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk

[panzerjager88]

that was rather my point Tony :D

i meant to say relative speed in my 4 key characteristics

[azrael]

quote:Originally posted by Tony Williams

quote:Originally posted by panzerjager88

the characteritics of a nightfighter are drastically different than a day fighter

classic aero factors (ie maneuverability) are rather irrelevant, as well as speed in the anti-bomber role judgeging by the effectiveness of the german med bomber types in the night fighter role

IMO radar quality, firepower, accel and speed are the salient factors


The speed of a night-fighter is only important in relation to the speed of its targets. It needs to have a significant speed advantage to close on a contact, but against a lumbering Lanc, it still doesn't have to be too fast. Against a Mossie is another matter entirely; the Mossie would have been long gone before a Ju 88 got to where it used to be...

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk


I would go even one step further, it is the cruising speed of the target against the top speed of the hunter that counts (probably the reason why the lower speed of the medium bombers converted to nightfighters did not hurt). Ideally, your opponent never knows that you are out there until he goes crashing into the ground in flames. So he will not accelerate and just cruise along serenely.

[simon]

Even Streib's claim of 5 Lancs is bogus for he only got 1 Lanc, the other 4 were Hallies. (see Tony Wood's site for LW claims)

Well, let's give the guy some credit here, 5 enemy aircraft in a sortie is still a pretty good score nevertheless, and flying a combat mission at night I'd imagine one 4 engine twin tail plane looks pretty much like any other from behind! ;)

As for the He219, as much as I like it the more and more I read about it the more and more I'm inclined to nominate it as another one for the "Over-rated" category. In fact, I'll do that now... :D

[Kutscha]

yes simon.;)

It was only put in because 21C tek sites say all Lancs.

[azrael]

quote:Originally posted by Kutscha

yes simon.;)

It was only put in because 21C tek sites say all Lancs.

In short one of you usual useless points, not contributing to the discussion, not stating anything new, just correcting people and bolstering your own ego, Kutscha?:D

[Kutscha]

quote:Originally posted by azrael

In short one of you usual useless points, not contributing to the discussion, not stating anything new, just correcting people and bolstering your own ego, Kutscha?:D


I can't even come close to yours. [:0]

You can go right on and keep believing all the false facts stated in your beloved 21C tek sites.:D :D :D But then your are not interested in the true facts are you? [|)]

[azrael]

quote:Originally posted by Kutscha

quote:Originally posted by azrael

In short one of you usual useless points, not contributing to the discussion, not stating anything new, just correcting people and bolstering your own ego, Kutscha?:D


I can't even come close to yours. [:0]

You can go right on and keep believing all the false facts stated in your beloved 21C tek sites.:D :D :D But then your are not interested in the true facts are you? [|)]



I never brought up the 5 Lancs, did I, that was you.:D
And as it comes to true facts, the vote is still up on that. Your sources (lately unpublished) claim one thing, mine claim another. Who is right? I do not know, honestly. What I do know, however, is that just becomes it comes from you does not make it fact or law, an attitude of yours that is extremely annoying. Not to mention that you are wrong at times, definitely. Or should I remind you of the post about FW190 Dora-9 not flying cover over Me262 airbases? You know which one I mean, the one you have edited by now.:D Guess you did not read that unpublished book as well as you thought, did you?

[Johnny G]

quote:Originally posted by azrael

quote:Originally posted by Kutscha

quote:Originally posted by azrael

In short one of you usual useless points, not contributing to the discussion, not stating anything new, just correcting people and bolstering your own ego, Kutscha?:D


I can't even come close to yours. [:0]

You can go right on and keep believing all the false facts stated in your beloved 21C tek sites.:D :D :D But then your are not interested in the true facts are you? [|)]



I never brought up the 5 Lancs, did I, that was you.:D
And as it comes to true facts, the vote is still up on that. Your sources (lately unpublished) claim one thing, mine claim another. Who is right? I do not know, honestly. What I do know, however, is that just becomes it comes from you does not make it fact or law, an attitude of yours that is extremely annoying. Not to mention that you are wrong at times, definitely. Or should I remind you of the post about FW190 Dora-9 not flying cover over Me262 airbases? You know which one I mean, the one you have edited by now.:D Guess you did not read that unpublished book as well as you thought, did you?


There's only one way to settle this azreal and Kutscha:
HANDBAGS AT DAWN!!:D

[Kutscha]

My dear azrael, I will take the word of someone who has spent years studying the LW over your 1 page 'polly want a cracker' 21C tek sites, any day.:) At least I am not cheap and buy good references sources, unlike you. :D

You sure it was Doras that I said?

[panzerjager88]

now play nice boys

quote:As for the He219, as much as I like it the more and more I read about it the more and more I'm inclined to nominate it as another one for the "Over-rated" category. In fact, I'll do that now...

i already beat you to it bud in the most overated planes section ;)

one thing going for the 219...i think it looks rather cool... thats gotta be worth something [8D]

why not redirect this topic to comparing contemporary craft like the mossie/110/88

and then the F-7/219/p-61 as a seperate issue

[azrael]

quote:Originally posted by Kutscha

My dear azrael, I will take the word of someone who has spent years studying the LW over your 1 page 'polly want a cracker' 21C tek sites, any day.:) At least I am not cheap and buy good references sources, unlike you. :D

Oh I would take his word, too. Unfortunately, you are not the expert person you are referring to. Quoting from unpublished books is also not exactly easy to check-up on, especially in the case of data that contradicts what many other sources claim. By the way, where do you buy those unpublished books you keep hinting at then.
quote:
You sure it was Doras that I said?

Yes it was Doras before you edited it, something along the lines of that your unpuublished book claims that no Doras or Ta-152s ever flew cover over the Me262 bases. :D

[azrael]

quote:Originally posted by Johnny G

quote:Originally posted by azrael

quote:Originally posted by Kutscha

quote:Originally posted by azrael

In short one of you usual useless points, not contributing to the discussion, not stating anything new, just correcting people and bolstering your own ego, Kutscha?:D


I can't even come close to yours. [:0]

You can go right on and keep believing all the false facts stated in your beloved 21C tek sites.:D :D :D But then your are not interested in the true facts are you? [|)]



I never brought up the 5 Lancs, did I, that was you.:D
And as it comes to true facts, the vote is still up on that. Your sources (lately unpublished) claim one thing, mine claim another. Who is right? I do not know, honestly. What I do know, however, is that just becomes it comes from you does not make it fact or law, an attitude of yours that is extremely annoying. Not to mention that you are wrong at times, definitely. Or should I remind you of the post about FW190 Dora-9 not flying cover over Me262 airbases? You know which one I mean, the one you have edited by now.:D Guess you did not read that unpublished book as well as you thought, did you?


There's only one way to settle this azreal and Kutscha:
HANDBAGS AT DAWN!!:D

HANDBAGS? You knave!! I choose ketchup and mustard quirtbottles at a hundred paces or properly fluffed-up cushions mano-a-mano.:D

[Kutscha]

Oh yes, that would be your expert 'polly want a cracker' 21C tek sites.:D:D

I might have edited the post but it was not to change what you claim, So :( you are. Post a link.

Johnny G, I'll let him use his dirty diaper and I will use a wet noodle. [:p]

[azrael]

quote:Originally posted by Kutscha

Oh yes, that would be your expert 'polly want a cracker' 21C tek sites.:D:D

I might have edited the post but it was not to change what you claim, So :( you are. Post a link.

Johnny G, I'll let him use his dirty diaper and I will use a wet noodle. [:p]

Let me congratulate you on finding out how to post smileys, Kutscha, I wonder how long it took before you realized that drawing them on screen did not do much. Well, now that you have figured it out, you must be proud of yourself, judging by your multiple use of them. Well done.

You did change the post and it is a tad hard to post a link to a post after you edited it, is it not? Either way I am getting a bit tired of you. You never do make any useful contributions to any discussion you are posting to, you quote non-existent (unpublished) books, you never answer any questions, you hint at mystical knowledge you have but fail to disclose it. You are exceedingly rude and arrogant. In short, you must be one of those people that do not have many friends in life and need to live out their inferiority complex by critizing without ever putting forth a constructive statement of their own. Might be inclined to feel sorry for you if you were not so stuck up.

[Kutscha]

The only one with the inferiority complex is you azrael. Now go find your mommy so she can change your dirty diaper. You are full of yourself.

Correcting you on what you get from your expert 'polly want a cracker' 21c tek is making a usful contribution. :D When you are so cheap about acquiring good references sources, those 21c tek sites will have to do, won't they? :D

[azrael]

quote:Originally posted by Kutscha

The only one with the inferiority complex is you azrael. Now go find your mommy so she can change your dirty diaper. You are full of yourself.

Correcting you on what you get from your expert 'polly want a cracker' 21c tek is making a usful contribution. :D When you are so cheap about acquiring good references sources, those 21c tek sites will have to do, won't they? :D

Ah one thing that can be relied upon, Kutscha, both your lack of style and of maturity. Again you fail to make any contribution besides flaunting your overblown ego. Well done, mate, your arrogance is only surpassed by your predictiveness. And congrats on the multiple smileys as well.

[Kutscha]

quote:Originally posted by azrael
[brAh one thing that can be relied upon, Kutscha, both your lack of style and of maturity. Again you fail to make any contribution besides flaunting your overblown ego. Well done, mate, your arrogance is only surpassed by your predictiveness. And congrats on the multiple smileys as well.


My dear azreal, your describing yourself again.

[azrael]

quote:Originally posted by Kutscha

quote:Originally posted by azrael
[brAh one thing that can be relied upon, Kutscha, both your lack of style and of maturity. Again you fail to make any contribution besides flaunting your overblown ego. Well done, mate, your arrogance is only surpassed by your predictiveness. And congrats on the multiple smileys as well.


My dear azreal, your describing yourself again.

If it were not so sad you would be a funny person. Talk about maturity, even Peewee Herman had to accept that "I know you are but what am I?" is not the most witty of comebacks. I guess you could learn from him.

[Wuzak]

quote:Originally posted by BuzzLightyear

I'd choose the P-61 as well. It was designed specifically as a night fighter. It's SCR-720 air intercept radar was probably the best of any nation during the war.

It was my impression that the Americans and British shared developments with RADAR. Certainly some British types (like NF Mossies) were fitted with American RADAR, but I'm not sure if the SCR-720 was ever put in a British aircraft.

Many of the American RADAR designs also owed a lot to British designs - such as centimetric RADAR.

[Double T]

The P-61's full-span spoilers made it one of, if not the best manuevering fighter of the war.
Big as a medium bomber, but designed as a dedicated night-fighter. I think of it as the P-38 Lightning's big brother.
Only the P-61 and the He-219 Uhu were designed as dedicated night-fighters, so the fact the Mosquito is in the hunt is a credit to it's superb original design and flexibility.
Of course the original question asked which was the BEST, so whether it came late, or arrived early means nothing in the arguement.
The P-61 Black Widow, with four.50s and four-20mm means a one-second burst will likely prove fatal.
The P-61 B/C is the victor in this contest. The Mossie is a game-second... and the He-219 Uhu rides in the back-seat.

Tim

[GregP]

Let's please try to keep this a discussion forum. The essence of argument is not to begin insulting each other. Rather, it is to state your case and why you feel that way and bouce the arguments off one another in a constructuve manner.

It's plain we have a difference of opinion here, but I'd bet the protagonists each have their opinions for sound reasons, and I'd bet each has valid points. C'mon guys, please make those points without a fight.

Let's stick to the facts of WWII aviation. That, at least, should be on topic.

Simon had a point above. He said that the main reason why the He-219 was considered so good by the Germans was probably the aircraft they had for comparison with it. I agree completely. To the British, the Mosquito was the best at everything it did. To the Americans, the P-61 was a VERY maneuverable, large plane with heavy firepower that had enough room for a large radar set ... and it was fast. What else could we want? To the Germans, the He-219 was the best night fighter they had.

I say we'll never really know since the P-61 never came up head to head against either of the other two .... at least to my knowledge. I lean toward the P-61 becasue of the reliable engines, heavy firepower, extreme maneuverability, and hard-hitting armament, but each of the other two can make a similar claim in the eyes of others. Let's say it is wonderful that we have three aircraft of such different characteristics that generate so much interest and loyalty from so many people while simultaneously performing the same task with competence.

At least we can agree they are all Great Planes, and that is what this forum is all about. Wish we had flying examples of all three so we could see them in the air together.

[curmudgeon]

quote:Originally posted by Double T

The P-61's full-span spoilers made it one of, if not the best manuevering fighter of the war.
Big as a medium bomber, but designed as a dedicated night-fighter. I think of it as the P-38 Lightning's big brother.
Only the P-61 and the He-219 Uhu were designed as dedicated night-fighters, so the fact the Mosquito is in the hunt is a credit to it's superb original design and flexibility.
Of course the original question asked which was the BEST, so whether it came late, or arrived early means nothing in the arguement.
The P-61 Black Widow, with four.50s and four-20mm means a one-second burst will likely prove fatal.
The P-61 B/C is the victor in this contest. The Mossie is a game-second... and the He-219 Uhu rides in the back-seat.


I disagree with your analysis. The Black Widow (P-61) was a wonderful technological achievement, but it first arrived in June 1944, and then had technological problems and teething troubles (e.g. the problems with the turret) that further reduced its service window. The P-61A/B were regarded as too slow to be effective as nightfighters. The turbo-charged P-61C arrived too late for combat operations in the Pacific, it is a post-war aircraft. In the Pacific theatre P-61s destroyed a small number of nuisance raiders and in Europe P-61s destroyed a small number of V-1s. By the time the aircraft entered service the axis forces no longer operated an extensive night bomber force. So as a night fighter it comes in the class of pretty, but irrelevant. Post-war it was quickly replaced as a night fighter by the F-82 (it was out of service by the time of Korea). Were there any P-61 'aces' in aircraft-aircraft combat? Wonderful 'plane, but negligible impact in actual combat.

[Wuzak]

quote:Originally posted by GregP

At least we can agree they are all Great Planes, and that is what this forum is all about. Wish we had flying examples of all three so we could see them in the air together.


Yes, we can.

I know that there aren't many, if any, Mosquitos in flying conditions. And there were few Uhu built, and those that were were most probably destroyed during or after the war.

But what of the P61. Surely there would be an example or two of them flying condition?

[Double T]

curmudgeon:
Maj. Carroll C. Smith and his radar operator Lt. Phillip Porter flying a P-61B "Times A Wastin" --418th NFS-Pacific--destroyed 4 japanese aircraft Dec 29th, 1944 off the coast of Mindoro-Phillipines. Their total for the war was 7 kills. (I had initially thought he was flying a "C-Model" but it was a "B-Model" with the ventral-mounted turret with four .50s.)
Nothing irrelevant about that. I will agree it was a handsome plane, as was the Mosquito and the He219 Uhu. I sometimes equate beauty with functionality.
The He219 Uhu was flying over home-turf, probably under the direction of ground-control radar. I don't see this as any indication of it's night-fighter prowess. The P-61's victories came in free-ranging night-patrols. It found it's prey using it's own radar capabilities, not vectored by ground-control.

Tim

[Kutscha]

P-61 squadron confirmed kills

6th NFS > 16 (Pac)
414th NFS > 5 (Eur)
415th NFS > 0
416th NFS > 0
417th NFS > 0
418th NFA > 18 (Pac)
419th NFS > 5 (Pac)
421 NFS > 13 (Pac)
422cd NFS > 43 (Eur)
425th NFS > 10 (Eur)
426th NFS > 5 (Pac)
427th NFS > 0
547th NFS > 6 (Pac)
548th NFS > 5 (Pac)
549th NFS > 1 (Pac)
550th NFS > 0

Pacific > 64
Europe > 58

It lists for Smith/Porter in Times A Wastin:
2 - Irvings
1 - Frank
1 - Dinah
1 - Rufe

Ernst/Kopel of the 422cd in Borrowed Time:
3 - Ju87s
1 - Ju188
1 - Bf110

This from the Osprey book on the P-61. ISBN 1-85532-725-2

[Double T]

Thanks Kutscha.
I see a discrepancy with kills alloted to "Times A Wastin." My sources say seven... Osprey quotes five.
Hmmm.

Tim

[GregP]

The P-61A went 322 mph at sea level, 355 mph at 10,000 feet, and 369 mph at 20,000 feet. If that is too slow, then so was virtually the entire Japanese Air Force. Likewise the virtual German Luftwaffe.

None of the bombers were much faster, and taht is primarily the intended target of a night fighter. Anyone who wastes gas sending a plane with no bomb load is stupid.

The P-61B was virtually the same as the P-61A with a few minor improvements.

The P-61C had turbosupercharged engines (P&W R-2800s) and could hit 430 mph at 30,000 feet. Some sources say 425 mph ... no difference to me. It was unmatched as a piston night fighter, but was too late to see combat in WWII, appearing in July 1945.

The Mid-Atlantic Air Museum is restoring one for static display, the National Air and Space Museum has one on static display, and the Smithsonian has one on static display. I know of none flying, very few Mosquitos, and no He-219s.

Too bad, These were good and significant aircraft, if only from a technical standpoint.

[Double T]

Have to say I personally like all the aircraft being discussed. I have the P-61B "Times A Wastin" and a Mosquito night-fighter in my collection. In lieu of the He219... I selected the Me110G as my night-fighter variant. All handsome and deadly in the right hands.
One we've missed however...

The Arado Ar234C-3N never made it into the skies for operational sorties, but the B-model was used in both bomb and recon roles before war's end.
As a photo-recon bird, it was described as un-interceptable by the allies. The C-variant--four BMW 003A-1 engines--is described as "the fastest jet of the war."
Would the Ar234C-3N have proved to be the ultimate nightfighter had the war continued? Personally I'm not convinced being the FASTEST was the most important asset in this game. Loiter-time, heavy armament and manueverabilty seem most important in this specialized-scenario.
I wonder how the P-61C would have fared against the Ar234C-3N?

Tim

[simon]

There is a surviving He219 under restoration, IIRC it's in ths US.

[difenbaker]

Hi there,

Im curious as to why this night-fighter contest is limited only to twin engined fighters? The F4U-4N or 5N would've been a nice contender. :D

Anyhow, isn't there is a night-fighter version of the P-38? With a pod radar slung underneath the front nose? From what I can recall reading books about it....its performance (speed and manuevrability) was greater than that of the mosquito posted above, right? Although I think that the P-61 did have the longest endurance.


cheers!

[DoBravery]

Didn't some versions of the Me109 or Fw190 have radar too?

I think in night fighter operations a 2nd or even a 3rd pair of eyes helps a lot. I think some 219's were modded for a 3rd person.

In terms of best night fighter:
The Mossie hunted the hunters. . .

[Kutscha]

Both the 109 and 190 operated as night fighters, but with no radar. There was a 190 version that radar fitted. A pic can be found here, http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=1171

[Double T]

DoB:
There was what is referred to as a "Nacht-Jabo" the Fw190A-5/U3. I remember seeing pix of it with extraneous antennae.

Tim

[Che_Guevara]

quote:Originally posted by Double T

DoB:
There was what is referred to as a "Nacht-Jabo" the Fw190A-5/U3. I remember seeing pix of it with extraneous antennae.

Tim


I guess the "Nacht-Jabos" were the Fw 190 A-5/U-8 (G-2), part of the Schnellkampfgeschwader 10 to attack airfields of the RAF in the gloaming.

http://www.focke-wulf190.com/images/190_g3_1.jpg


There is also a Focke-Wulf Fw 190A-6/R6 in South Africa, the last "real" Fw night-fighter.

http://www.luftwaffe39-45.historia.nom.br/aero/galeria/fw190_pnlu5.jpg

http://www.luftwaffe39-45.historia.nom.br/aero/fw190_pnlu.jpg


Regards,
Che.

[Wuzak]

quote:Originally posted by difenbaker

Anyhow, isn't there is a night-fighter version of the P-38? With a pod radar slung underneath the front nose? From what I can recall reading books about it....its performance (speed and manuevrability) was greater than that of the mosquito posted above, right? Although I think that the P-61 did have the longest endurance.


Yes, there was a night fighter version of the P38 (the P38N IIRC).

It did have a pod beneath the nose housing radar. The RADAR operator sat in an elevated area behind the pilot, in a very cramped seating position. Despite the pd and the extra cockpit, the night fighter P38 lost little performance over its equivalent P38. Maybe lost 5-10mph in top speed, which would have still put it ahead of most NF Mosquitos, if not all.

The only problem with the P38 I can see is that the pod was small, and probably could not carry the more advanced RADAR systems.

The first AI RADAR were fixed, but mid-late WW2 the British and Americans were equipping with RADAR that had a traversing dish, which gave a greater area of "visibility".

[Che_Guevara]

quote:Yes, there was a night fighter version of the P38 (the P38N IIRC).

What does IIRC mean ?

and a nice pic of a P38 nightfighter, fitted with radar.

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/images/p38-5.jpg

Best wishes,
Che.

[bearoutwest]

quote:Originally posted by Olympic

I understand that in Osprey's book of P-61 units, there's reference to a fly-off between a P-61A and a Mosquito NF in middle 1944. If I can recall the P-61 comprehensively outpaced,outclimbed and outmaneuvered the Mossie.
Does anyone have more information on this event.


There's a book on USAAF/USAF night fighters called "Queen of the Night Skies" (I think, going from memory now), published by Schiffer. It notes that there was a comparative fly-off between the P-61 and a Mosquito NF. The fly-off was to evaluate relative flying capabilities of the two aircraft and conducted during daylight. It was not a comparison of night-fighting/radar-interception effectiveness. The outcome was to heavily influence the decision for the USAAF to purchase the P-61 or the Mosquito. The P-61 "apparently" bettered the Mosquito in almost every aspect, though there was very little real difference. I say "apparently" because the book mentions that if the RAF crew had won the fly-off in the Mosquito, then there was the real possibility of the P-61 being cancelled and the USAAF ordering large quantities of the Mosquito. At that time, Mosquito production was only just meeting the RAF needs for day-fighters/fighter-bombers/NF/bombers. The requirement to divert numbers for USAAF service before American production could catch up, would have had a major impact on RAF operations. The conjecture of the author was that it was possible the RAF crew deliberately lost the fly-off by a sufficiently small margin, for the USAAF to have confidence in ordering the P-61, thus ensuring Mosquito production was mainly for the RAF.

I'm describing the passage from memory. I'll check from the passage in the book over the next day or two.
...geoff

[simon]

IIRC is internet discussion group jargon for If I Recall Correctly, similarly AFAIK is As Far As I Know.

HTH (Hope To Help! :D)

[DoBravery]

Does anyone know when radar detection sensors were fitted to aircraft?

I'm curious if any air forces had any devices to alert the pilot/air crew that a night interceptor was pointing its radar at them.

Or atleast, didn't some aircraft have a rearward radar pod? In time for WWII?

[Trexx]

quote:Originally posted by Double T

The P-61's full-span spoilers made it one of, if not the best manuevering fighter of the war.
Big as a medium bomber, but designed as a dedicated night-fighter. I think of it as the P-38 Lightning's big brother.
Only the P-61 and the He-219 Uhu were designed as dedicated night-fighters, so the fact the Mosquito is in the hunt is a credit to it's superb original design and flexibility.
Of course the original question asked which was the BEST, so whether it came late, or arrived early means nothing in the arguement.
The P-61 Black Widow, with four.50s and four-20mm means a one-second burst will likely prove fatal.
The P-61 B/C is the victor in this contest. The Mossie is a game-second... and the He-219 Uhu rides in the back-seat.

Tim



I concur! Well said!

It was big, it was black, it could find the enemy and make 'em splat!
Black Widow was great and especially fantastic at finding and destroying enemy aircraft in darkness. Better than all others fielded above.

The supporting comments made are poinient, save for the sniping...

I would also add that the P-61 was successfully shrouded in super-secret and was very technologically advanced in comparison to it's contemporaries. As a night-fighter plane it was TOP-DRAWER! USA ALL THE WAY!

[dunmunro1]

The Bristal Beaufighter was very successful. So was the Hawker Hurricane.


http://www.rogerdarlington.co.uk/Hurricane.html

http://www.rogerdarlington.co.uk/nighthawk.html

cheers

Duncan

[curmudgeon]

quote:Originally posted by Kutscha

P-61 squadron confirmed kills

6th NFS > 16 (Pac)
414th NFS > 5 (Eur)
415th NFS > 0
416th NFS > 0
417th NFS > 0
418th NFA > 18 (Pac)
419th NFS > 5 (Pac)
421 NFS > 13 (Pac)
422cd NFS > 43 (Eur)
425th NFS > 10 (Eur)
426th NFS > 5 (Pac)
427th NFS > 0
547th NFS > 6 (Pac)
548th NFS > 5 (Pac)
549th NFS > 1 (Pac)
550th NFS > 0

Pacific > 64
Europe > 58

What were the 5 squadrons with no kills? Training in the US or flying night intruder and tasked at ground transport interdiction (which I understand was a major task of P-61s)?
quote:
It lists for Smith/Porter in Times A Wastin:
2 - Irvings
1 - Frank
1 - Dinah
1 - Rufe

Ernst/Kopel of the 422cd in Borrowed Time:
3 - Ju87s
1 - Ju188
1 - Bf110

This from the Osprey book on the P-61. ISBN 1-85532-725-2


Thanks - Ju87s ...

So in the Pacific 8 squadrons, say 12 months, for 64 aircraft destroyed (and a lot of B29s saved). Europe 3 squadrons, say 9 months, 58 aircraft destroyed (not counting the V-1s?). This is consistent with what I have read about P-61s being tasked with transport destruction, there being few German bombers and the P-61 not having the speed to intercept German night fighters. Also night bomber protection was done by the RAF and there would have been real difficulties in coordinating RAF bombers, RAF protective night fighters and USAAF night fighters - too many chances for blue-on-blue.

[Wuzak]

quote:Originally posted by curmudgeon

This is consistent with what I have read about P-61s being tasked with transport destruction, there being few German bombers and the P-61 not having the speed to intercept German night fighters.

Which German night fighters would those be?

From what was said early in this discussion, the Uhu had similar performance to the P61, at least in terms of top speed.

Those units that did not record a confirmed kill may not have come across any enemy aircraft, so had no opportunity.

[Kutscha]

From http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p61_9.html

Wartime units using the P-61 included:

6th Night Fighter Squadron, Seventh Air Force. Received Black Widows in May 1944. Served in Guadalcanal, New Guinea, Saipan, Iwo Jima. Inactivated February 1947 and reactivated as 339th All Weather Squadron.

414th Night Fighter Squadron, Twelfth Air Force. Received Black Widows in December 1944. Served in Algeria, Sardinia, Corsica, Italy, plus detachment to Belgium. Inactivated August 1947 and reformed as 319th All Weather Squadron.

415th Night Fighter Squadron, Twelfth Air Force. Received Black Widow in March 1945. Served in Italy, Corsica, France, Germany. Inactived September 1947.

416th Night Fighter Squadron, Twelfth Air Force. Received Black Widow in June 1945. Served in Italy, Corsica, France, Germany. Inactived November 1946 and redesignated 2nd Fighter Squadron (All Weather).

417th Night Fighter Squadron, Twelfth Air Force. Received Black Widow in April/May 1945. Served in Italy, Corsica, France, Germany. Inactived November 1946.

418th Night Fighter Squadron, Fifth Air Force. Received Black Widow in September 1944. Served in New Guinea, Philippines. Inactivated February 1947 but reactivated August 1948 as 4th All Weather Squadron.

419th Night Fighter Squadron, Thirteenth Air Force. Received Black Widow in May 1944. Served in New Guinea, Philippines. Inactivated February 1947.

421st Night Fighter Squadron, Fifth Air Force. Received Black Widow June 1944. Served in New Guinea, Philippines. Inactivated February 1947. Reactivated august 1948 as 68th All Weather Squadron.

422nd Night Fighter Squadron, Ninth Air Force. Received Black Widow May 1944. Served in England, France, Belgium, Germany. Inactivated September 1945.

425th Night Fighter Squadron, Ninth Air Force. Served in England, France, and Germany. Inactivated August 1947.

426th Night Fighter Squadron, Fourteenth Air Force. Received Black Widow September 1944. Served in India, China to protect B-29 bases from attack. Inactivated November 1945.

427th Night Fighter Squadron. Served briefly in Italy then moved to India, Burma, China. Received Black Widow in August 1944. Inactivated October 1945.

547th Night Fighter Squadron, Fifth Air Force. Activated March 1944 with P-61. Served in New Guinea, Philippines, Ie Shima, Japan. Inactivated February 1946.

548th Night Fighter Squadron, Seventh Air Force. Activated April 1944 with P-61. Served in Saipan, Iwo Jima, Ie Shima. Inactivated December 1945. Reactivated in 1969 as the 548th Combat Training Squadron. Still in service.

549th Night Fighter Squadron, Seventh Air Force. Activated May 1944 with P-61. Served on Saipan, Iwo Jima. Inactivated February 1946.

550th Night Fighter Squadron. Activated June 1944. Received first Black Widows January 1945. Served in New Guinea, Philippines. Inactivated January 1946.

[Kutscha]

The P-61 did get 3 Fw190s. Fw190s flew night missions with Nachtschlachtgruppe 20.

http://www.ww2.dk/

[dunmunro1]

Mosquito Nightfighter ace Bob Braham, shot down two FW190s in Daylight, in March and May of 1944, whilst flying his Mosquito during daylight intruder missions.

Cheers

Duncan

[curmudgeon]

quote:Originally posted by Wuzak

quote:Originally posted by curmudgeon

This is consistent with what I have read about P-61s being tasked with transport destruction, there being few German bombers and the P-61 not having the speed to intercept German night fighters.

Which German night fighters would those be?

From what was said early in this discussion, the Uhu had similar performance to the P61, at least in terms of top speed.

Those units that did not record a confirmed kill may not have come across any enemy aircraft, so had no opportunity.


Ummm, Ju88 380mph, Me110 340mph (speeds quoted for radar-equipped nightfighter versions), FW190 ... The P-61A data I have found quotes a maximum speed of 320mph, which is why the turbocharged P-61C was developed.

From a list put up it seems some of the 0-score squadrons were in Europe very late and were probably not operational during the war.

Comments by some successful nightfighter pilots and radar operators indicated manoeuvrability was nice, but a good interception wasn't a dogfight but rather a case of intercepting then overtaking the prey before sneaking in without being seen and obliterating the target ... 'a nice case of murder'.

[difenbaker]

quote:Originally posted by dunmunro1

The Bristal Beaufighter was very successful. So was the Hawker Hurricane.

http://www.rogerdarlington.co.uk/Hurricane.html
http://www.rogerdarlington.co.uk/nighthawk.html

cheers

Duncan


Yup, the Beaufighter did enjoy some success, around the latter part of the war. For it's size, it was quite maneuverable but it wasn't that particularly fast nor as long-ranged as the others, that's why they opted to use the mosquito more in the night fighter role.

cheers!

[Ricky]

quote:Originally posted by DoBravery

Does anyone know when radar detection sensors were fitted to aircraft?

I'm curious if any air forces had any devices to alert the pilot/air crew that a night interceptor was pointing its radar at them.

Or atleast, didn't some aircraft have a rearward radar pod? In time for WWII?


The RAF introduced 'Monica' in June 1943.
It was a tail-mounted (rearward looking?) radar installed in night bombers to detect German Nightfighters.

However, the Germans then developed a passive radar-detector to home in on Monica, and after this was discovered Monica was withdrawn (in 1944, IIRC).

The Germans also designed a passive radar-detector to home in on H2S, the navigational / bomb-aiming radar used by the RAF (and later by the USAAF, under a different name).

[Wuzak]

quote:Originally posted by curmudgeon

Ummm, Ju88 380mph, Me110 340mph (speeds quoted for radar-equipped nightfighter versions), FW190 ... The P-61A data I have found quotes a maximum speed of 320mph, which is why the turbocharged P-61C was developed.


The sources I have put the top speed of the P-61A and B at around 360-380mph. That was with the garden variety R2800 with a meagre 2000hp (was this with supercharging?).

The P-61C had the turbocharged R2800s, with 2800hp "wet rating". I assume that wet rating is with water/methanol injection. Its top speed was around 440mph.

Does anybody know if the C had the turret deleted as standard?

[bearoutwest]

Following on from my previous post on the comparative fly-off between RAF Mosquito Mk.XVII and USAAF P-61, here's an extract from “Queen of the Midnight Skies” by Garry Pape & Ronald Harrison and published by Schiffer in 1992.

The evaluation demonstration of the two aircraft took place on July 5, 1944 at RAF Station Hurn. The 422nd's Unit History relates it this way:

“On the 5th, the long awaited test with a Mosquito (Mark XVII) was laid on at 1600. Squadron Leader Barnwell of 125 Squadron and his R/O (F/O Norman N. Williams) versus 1st Lt. Donald J. Doyle. The P-61 more than exceeded even our wildest hopes, being faster at 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 and 20,000 feet; out turned the Mossie at every altitude and by a big margin and far surpassed the Mossie in rate of climb. We could go faster and slower up or down. Faster than the pride of the British - a most enjoyable afternoon!”

A memo to Lt.Gen. Hoyt S. Vandenberg, Commanding Officer of the Ninth Air Force, from Fighter and Air Defense Branch, OC&R; subject: Report of Operational Test of the P-61, July 7, 1944 in the ETO, stated, "Mosquito and P-61 were approximately equal in performance with the P-61 being slightly faster." In their follow-up report, Kratz and Viccellio reported that the P-61 had proven itself adequate to cope with Ju 88s, Do 217s, and He 177s. It also stated that the Widow was slightly faster that the Mosquito Mk XVII at all altitudes tested, which was up to 20,000 feet, and that it could out climb the Mosquito and was able to turn inside it in aerial combat.
There always seemed to be some doubts within the War Department as to the suitability of the Widow and they seemed to be driven in their attempts to get Mosquito night fighters. Col. Kratz who had just learned first hand the feelings of the Ninth's night fighters and witnessed the P-61s performance pitted against that of the Mosquito, recalled an earlier similar experience:

“I was in General (Carl) Spaatz's office along with Mr. Robert A. Lovett, then Assistant Secretary of War for Air. We wanted to know whether or not the P-61 should be produced in quantity. Mr. Lovett was very much in favor of it. General Spaatz was not. He said he had the performance troops (at Eglin Field, Florida) in the P-61 and the Mosquito, and they found the Mosquito to be better; and he had arranged for the AAF to get 200 Mosquitos.
I asked Gen. Spaatz if he couldn't have a competition. I had an informal competition. I flew the P-61, and someone else flew the Mosquito; and we tried climbs, etc. I was very elated at the results and sent back this report to Gen. Spaatz. The P-61 was then mass-produced. A couple of months later a more formal contest was held using the test pilots. I'm sure they could get a great deal more out of the '61 than I could and probably a test pilot could get more out of a Mosquito. The same thing happened.
I'm absolutely sure to this day that the British were lying like troopers. I honestly believe the P-61 was not as fast as the Mosquito, which the British needed because by that time it was the one airplane that could get into Berlin and back without getting shot down. I doubt very seriously that the others knew better. But come what may, the'61 was a good night fighter. In the combat game you've got to be pretty realistic about these things. The P-61 was not a superior night fighter. It was not a poor night fighter. It was a good night fighter. It did not have quite enough speed.”

The above is a discussion between staff officers, and is not verified in the book by statements from the RAF crew. Read into it what you will, perhaps we'll never know the real outcome of a comparative fly-off. However, when you compare quoted top speeds of dissimilar aircraft, remember that the P-61 and the Mosquito will most likely have top speeds at different heights, fuel loads, weights, etc. A P-61 doing it's top speed may never encounter a Mosquito doing its top speed because of the difference in height for max speed. So this sort of comparison doesn't necessarily prove anything meaningful.

A quick comparison from the Fighters series from MacDonald's War Planes - speed at height:
P-61A max speed 369 mph at 20,000 ft.
Mosquito NF.XIX max speed 370 mph at 14,000 ft.
Mosquito NF.30 max speed 407 mph at 28,000 ft.
(Perhaps someone else has equivalent data for the Mosquito Mk.XVII ?)

I tend to think that both were very fine aeroplanes.
...geoff

[DoBravery]

[/quote]
The RAF introduced 'Monica' in June 1943.
It was a tail-mounted (rearward looking?) radar installed in night bombers to detect German Nightfighters.

However, the Germans then developed a passive radar-detector to home in on Monica, and after this was discovered Monica was withdrawn (in 1944, IIRC).

The Germans also designed a passive radar-detector to home in on H2S, the navigational / bomb-aiming radar used by the RAF (and later by the USAAF, under a different name).
[/quote]

Thanks Ricky. Exactly what I was looking for.

[Trexx]

I especially love the Mosquito & the Beaufighter. They're very capable airplanes, and quite formidable.

The Black Widow was too. It was also was a secret weapon with exotic developments in radar based detection equipment. In most regards it was a "proof-of-concept" project.

[Trexx]

Is the P-82 off the list? I don't think it saw World War Two, did it?

[Wuzak]

quote:Originally posted by Trexx

Is the P-82 off the list? I don't think it saw World War Two, did it?


The prototypes first flew in July 1945, and the first production models delivered in 1946. The production order was cancelled with only 20 made.

A new production order was issued late in 1946. These aircraft were delivered in 1948.

It was also in 1946 when NAA were asked to build a nightfighter version of the P82 - the F82F and G (different radar).

So no, P82s didn't quite make WW2.

[Che_Guevara]

quote:Originally posted by simon

IIRC is internet discussion group jargon for If I Recall Correctly, similarly AFAIK is As Far As I Know.

HTH (Hope To Help! :D)


Ah, thx simon :)

Best wishes,
Che.

[Wuzak]

quote:Originally posted by BuzzLightyear

I'd choose the P-61 as well. It was designed specifically as a night fighter. It's SCR-720 air intercept radar was probably the best of any nation during the war.

After a little research I found that the SCR-720 RADAR was used by the British as the AI Mk X. The Mosquito was first equipped with this RADAR in early-mid 1943 in the NF Mk XVII. These were, as the XII, modified NF Mk IIs.

Performance for the XVII was probably similar to the XIII, which was:

Max Speed 356mph @ 9000ft, 270mph at 19000ft. Range was 1520 miles (2446km) with internal fuel.

The XVII would have entered service slightly earlier than the P-61A, or at the same time.

The NF Mk 30 Mosquito entered service in July 1944 - at the same time as the P-61B entered service. The NF Mk 30 also used the SCR-720 RADAR.

The performance for the P-61B was max speed 330mph @ sea level, 362mph @ 15000ft. Range on internal fuel was 940miles(1513km).

For the Mosquito NF Mk 30 max speed was 338mph @ sea level, 424mph @ 26500ft, range 1180 miles (1900km).

The P-61C and D had the more powerful engines, and a max speed of around 430mph. The prototype C began flight testing in July 1945. The D began flight testing in November 1944, but persistant engine failures led it to be abandoned in favour of the C. C production began before flight testing had commenced, 41 built before VJ day. I don't know if these were delivered, but I think it is doubtful.

[Trexx]

quote:Originally posted by Che_Guevara

quote:Originally posted by simon

IIRC is internet discussion group jargon for If I Recall Correctly, similarly AFAIK is As Far As I Know.

HTH (Hope To Help! :D)


Ah, thx simon :)

Best wishes,
Che.


Thanks for the Rosetta stone. I am naive, and hadn't the slightest clue to what that all meant, until now. Thanks!

[Wuzak]

quote:Originally posted by Trexx

Thanks for the Rosetta stone. I am naive, and hadn't the slightest clue to what that all meant, until now. Thanks!


Sorry for the jargon......

I have picked that up from years on other boards.

[BuzzLightyear]

quote:
Originally posted by Wuzak

Performance for the XVII was probably similar to the XIII, which was:

Max Speed 356mph @ 9000ft, 270mph at 19000ft. Range was 1520 miles (2446km) with internal fuel.

The XVII would have entered service slightly earlier than the P-61A, or at the same time.


According to De Havilland Aircraft: Since 1909, A J Jackson the XVII had a maximum speed of 370mph and an initial climb rate of 3,000 fpm.



quote:
The NF Mk 30 Mosquito entered service in July 1944 - at the same time as the P-61B entered service. The NF Mk 30 also used the SCR-720 RADAR.

The performance for the P-61B was max speed 330mph @ sea level, 362mph @ 15000ft. Range on internal fuel was 940miles(1513km).

For the Mosquito NF Mk 30 max speed was 338mph @ sea level, 424mph @ 26500ft, range 1180 miles (1900km).


Your speed for the MK XXX is much higher than published numbers. Both the book I cited above and The British Fighter: Since 1912, Francis K Mason show a top speed of 407 mph. Initial climb rate was 2,850 fpm. It was significantly heavier than the XVII.

The 362 mph top speed for the P-61B is a military power rating, not a WEP rating. On WEP, the top speed was around 380 mph. Initial climb rate was in excess of 3,000 fpm.

So the P-61A/B was faster than the XVII and nearly as fast as the XXX. Its initial climb rate was better than both. And according to either the book Queen of the Midnight Skies or Northrop P-61 Black Widow (both or which I’ve read, but don’t own) there was a near mutiny in a USAAF NF squadron when they were told them may have to give up their Black Widows and go back to Mosquitoes. The Black Widows were far more highly regarded – easier to maintain, fly with superior maneuverability to the Mosquito.

It was based on these facts that I chose the P-61.

[Kutscha]

Buzz, the British did not use Roman numerals after XX. So it is not NF XXX but NF30.

quote:Your speed for the MK XXX is ......

[curmudgeon]

quote:Originally posted by BuzzLightyear


So the P-61A/B was faster than the XVII and nearly as fast as the XXX. Its initial climb rate was better than both. And according to either the book Queen of the Midnight Skies or Northrop P-61 Black Widow (both or which I’ve read, but don’t own) there was a near mutiny in a USAAF NF squadron when they were told them may have to give up their Black Widows and go back to Mosquitoes. The Black Widows were far more highly regarded – easier to maintain, fly with superior maneuverability to the Mosquito.

It was based on these facts that I chose the P-61.


This is getting a bit heated. The P-61A had engine problems, the P-61B had problems with the turret. The P-61C was postwar.

I can see why the Brits soldiered on postwar with the Mosquito (they were broke) a leapt to Meteor nightfighters, but the US replaced the P-61C with the P-82/F-82 ASAP despite having jet nightfighters in development ... I suspect the straight figures may be missing something. Given the range of the later P-61s, if the rest of the performance is as reported it is really suspicious that the USAAF/USAF dropped it so fast

Did the Mosquito Mk 30 have uprated engines? The earlier Mks were mostly modified Mk IIs (some were physically Mk II airframes with upgraded avionics) and we presume had engines compatable with Mk IIs ...

[Wuzak]

My numbers for the Mosquito and teh Black Widow are from The Complete Book of Fighters, by William Green and Gordon Swanborough.

On checking another of my books, the NF30 is quoted a top speed of 410mph.

The engines were upgraded. The MkII had 1250hp Merlins, and the NF30 had 1680hp Merlin 72s or 1710hp Merlin 76s. The NF30 also got paddle blade propellors.

Even with the reduced top speed of the NF30 it still has a 30mph top speed advantage over the P61 A/B, the B model being its contemporary.

The earlier model NF Mosquitos had a very similar top speed - faster on normal power, if slower on WEP.


Buzz, one of your earlier assessments was that the P61 had superior RADAR as one of its advantages. This is not the case as the Mosquito was equipped with the same RADAR at the same time.

So the biggest advantage the P61 would have over the Mosquito is its reported manouverability.

[Wuzak]

I know that on-line sources can be suspect, but.....

quote:De Havilland Mosquito NF Mk 30: As NF Mk XIX with two-stage 1,680 hp Merlin 72s; later 1,710 hp Merlin 76 and finally 1,690 hp Merlin 113 engines. First flown March 1944; 530 built and operational service began June 13, 1944, with No 219 Sqn.

Max speed, 338 mph (544 km/h) at sea level and 424 mph (682 km/h) at 26,500ft (8,077 m). Initial rate of climb, 2,250 ftlmin (11.4 m/sec). Operational ceiling, 35,000 ft (10,668 m). Cruising speed, 288 mph (463 km/h) at sea level and 380 mph (611 km/h) at 30,500 ft (9,296 m). Cruising range, 1,180 mis (1,900 km). Empty weight, 15,l$ff Ib (6,880 kg). Gross weight, 21,105 Ib (33,958 kg). Span, 54ft 2 in (16.51 m). Length, 41 ft 4 in (12.59 m).



http://www.jaapteeuwen.com/ww2aircraft/html%20pages/DE%20HAVILLAND%20DH98%20MOSQUITO.htm

Note the cruise speed and altitude! If that is true it is about the same as the P61's maximum (WEP or not!), and, from what was said earlier, almost impossible for the He219 to reach.




quote:

SOME MAXIMUM SPEEDS:-
360+ mph (579+ km/h) - NF XV.
370 mph (596km/h) at 22,000ft (6700m) - Mk II.
370 mph (596km/h) at 14,000ft (4270m) - NF XII, XIII, XVII, XIX.
378 mph (609km/h) at 13,200ft (4,022m) - FB VI in FS gear.
385 mph (610km/h) at 18,000lb (8,127kg) weight - B IV in MS gear.
379 mph (609km/h) at 6,000ft (1829m) - NF XII, NF30 in MS gear.
394 mph (634km/h) at 13,800ft (4206m) - NF XII, NF30 in FS gear.
350 mph (563km/h) at Sea Level - NF XII, NF30.
424 mph (682km/h) at 26,500ft (8075m) - NF 30 in FS gear.
425 mph (684km/h) at 35,000ft (10,669m) - PR 34.
437 mph (703km/h) at 29,000ft (8839.2m) - Protoype with Merlin 61 engines.
Speeds varied depending on aircraft specification and weight carried.


http://www.home.gil.com.au/~bfillery/mossie06.htm


quote:Type: Mosquito NF Mk.30
Function: nightfighter
Year: 1944
Crew: 2
Engines: 2 * 1710hp R.R. Merlin 76
Wing Span: 16.51 m
Length: 12.64 m
Height: 4.65 m
Wing Area: 41.81 m2
Empty Weight: 6875 kg
Speed: 682km/h
Range: 1900km


http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/mosquito.htm

(682km/h = 423.6mph)

[Wuzak]

quote:de Havilland Mosquito NF Mk.II
1942 595 6700 Britain
Two 1300 hp Rolls-Royce Merlin 21
de Havilland Mosquito NF Mk.XIII
1944 595 4270 Britain
Two 1300 hp Rolls-Royce Merlin 21
de Havilland Mosquito NF Mk.30
1944 682 8075 Britain
Two 1710 hp Rolls-Royce Merlin 76


Northrop P-61B Black Widow
1944 582 4570 USA
Two 2250 hp Pratt & Whitney R-2800-65



http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/perf/FighterSpeed.data

The Format is:
Name
Year Speed(km/h) Height(m) Country
Engines

[BuzzLightyear]

quote:Originally posted by Kutscha

Buzz, the British did not use Roman numerals after XX. So it is not NF XXX but NF30.

quote:Your speed for the MK XXX is ......


OK, well that changes everything.

[Ricky]

quote:Originally posted by BuzzLightyear

OK, well that changes everything.

:D

[BuzzLightyear]

quote:
Originally posted by curmudgeon

This is getting a bit heated. The P-61A had engine problems, the P-61B had problems with the turret. The P-61C was postwar.


Interesting. Please describe the engine problems as I am unaware. These problems are not noted in the sources to which I have access.

The removal of the turret began with the P-61A, not B, and was an aerodynamic consideration, and also because the mechanisms used in its construction was needed in other bomber aircraft.


quote:
I can see why the Brits soldiered on postwar with the Mosquito (they were broke) a leapt to Meteor nightfighters, but the US replaced the P-61C with the P-82/F-82 ASAP despite having jet nightfighters in development ... I suspect the straight figures may be missing something. Given the range of the later P-61s, if the rest of the performance is as reported it is really suspicious that the USAAF/USAF dropped it so fast


And your source that the USAAF dropped it “so fast?” In June 1948, there were ten NF squadrons still equipped solely with the P-61. Most of these were replaced by jets beginning in 1950.

[BuzzLightyear]

quote:
Originally posted by Wuzak

My numbers for the Mosquito and teh Black Widow are from The Complete Book of Fighters, by William Green and Gordon Swanborough.

On checking another of my books, the NF30 is quoted a top speed of 410mph.


So more sources list it at around the 407-410 mph mark that the 424 mph you posted earlier.


quote:
The engines were upgraded. The MkII had 1250hp Merlins, and the NF30 had 1680hp Merlin 72s or 1710hp Merlin 76s. The NF30 also got paddle blade propellors.


OK. But paddle prop were more likely added to assist in climb rate. Thinner chord props, especially at higher altitudes, generally make for better speeds.



quote:
Even with the reduced top speed of the NF30 it still has a 30mph top speed advantage over the P61 A/B, the B model being its contemporary.

The earlier model NF Mosquitos had a very similar top speed - faster on normal power, if slower on WEP.


I’m not sure what you mean “faster on normal power, if slower on WEP.”




quote:
Buzz, one of your earlier assessments was that the P61 had superior RADAR as one of its advantages. This is not the case as the Mosquito was equipped with the same RADAR at the same time.

So the biggest advantage the P61 would have over the Mosquito is its reported manouverability.



The only advantage the NF 30 seems to have had was speed. P-61 appears to have had the advantage in maneuverability, and especially climb rate. Not to mention durability (radial versus inline).

BTW:

http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/p61.jpg

[Kutscha]

quote:Originally posted by BuzzLightyear

Interesting. Please describe the engine problems as I am unaware. These problems are not noted in the sources to which I have access.

The removal of the turret began with the P-61A, not B, and was an aerodynamic consideration, and also because the mechanisms used in its construction was needed in other bomber aircraft.

Agree. The P&W was a very reliable engine so don't know how it can be said there was problems with it. There was a spares issue that kept many a/c grounded in late '44.

Some models of the B had turrets.

42-39428, 42-39408, 42-39454, 42-39405, 42-39504, 42-39606 are just some from the B-1, B-6 and B-15.

[Wuzak]

quote:Originally posted by BuzzLightyear

So more sources list it at around the 407-410 mph mark that the 424 mph you posted earlier.


I posted several sources from the internet that stated the 424mph maximum.


quote:Originally posted by BuzzLightyear

OK. But paddle prop were more likely added to assist in climb rate. Thinner chord props, especially at higher altitudes, generally make for better speeds.


I understood that high altitude aircraft used paddle blade props for performance at altitude.


quote:Originally posted by BuzzLightyear

I’m not sure what you mean “faster on normal power, if slower on WEP.”

By that I mean that earlier Mks of NF Mosquitos were faster than the P61A/B when the latter was on normal rated power, but slower when the latter was on WEP.


quote:Originally posted by BuzzLightyear

The only advantage the NF 30 seems to have had was speed. P-61 appears to have had the advantage in maneuverability, and especially climb rate. Not to mention durability (radial versus inline).

BTW:

http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/p61.jpg



What use is superior firepower (only on barbette equipped P61s), better climb rate, and superior manoueverability if you can't catch the target?

btw, do you have one of thos climb rate charts for a Mosquito NF Mk30, or MkXVII?

I am not trying to denigrate the P61, but I am suggesting that its superiority is not so cut-and-dried.

[Wuzak]

http://www.usaaf.net/ww2/night/nightpg5.htm

quote:To resolve the controversy, Lt. Gen. Carl A. Spaatz, Commander of United States Strategic Air Forces in Europe, ordered a July 5, 1944, flyoff at Hurn, England, pitting the P-61 directly against Vandenberg’s choice, the British Mosquito. Lt. Col. Winston W. Kratz, director of night fighter training in the United States, bet $500 that the Mosquito could outperform the Widow. According to the 422d NFS historian, the competing P-61, “tweaked” to get maximum performance, proved faster at all altitudes, “outturned the Mossie at every altitude and by a big margin and far surpassed the Mossie in rate of climb.” All in all, the historian noted, “a most enjoyable afternoon-Kratz paid off.” The official report concluded that the “P-61 can out-climb the Mosquito due to the ability of the P-61 to operate indefinitely at military power without overheating,” critical to closing on a bogey.

[BuzzLightyear]

quote:
I posted several sources from the internet that stated the 424mph maximum.


Here’s an internet source that shows an NF 30 without the bulbous nose of the Mk X radar equipped version:

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/mosquitonf30gmcd_1.htm

Which “version” of the NF 30 did 424mph? I’ll prefer to stick with respected books and researchers.





quote:
I understood that high altitude aircraft used paddle blade props for performance at altitude.


Thinner blade props are more efficient at high altitude that paddle props. The paddle props added to the P-47 increase climb rate substantially, but had a next to zero effect on speed. Given the Mosquito’s climb rate, adding paddle props would not be unusual.





quote:
By that I mean that earlier Mks of NF Mosquitos were faster than the P61A/B when the latter was on normal rated power, but slower when the latter was on WEP.


Wouldn’t it be fair to compare similar power settings? Comparing the Mosquito’s WEP speed to the BW’s military power speed doesn’t make much sense.



quote:
What use is superior firepower (only on barbette equipped P61s)


I didn’t mention firepower.


quote:
, better climb rate, and superior manoueverability if you can't catch the target?


What target couldn’t it catch? In the NF role in both the ETO and PTO the BW was used as a prowler. I’m not sure any axis plane would be cruising along at a speed the BW couldn’t catch. In the night intercept role, what advantage do you think superior climb rate gives?

In the Pacific, especially near the end of the war, Ki-46-III recce planes, with speeds of well over 400mph, flying over Okinawa and other US captures could only be intercepted (and then only occassionally) by fast climbing day fighters which were land-radar guided. In this case, if a Black Widow couldn't catch them, a Mosquito wouldn't help.



quote:
I am not trying to denigrate the P61, but I am suggesting that its superiority is not so cut-and-dried.


There is always room for argument. But the preponderance of the evidence I’ve seen suggests the BW as the superior night fighter.


quote:
To resolve the controversy, Lt. Gen. Carl A. Spaatz, Commander of United States Strategic Air Forces in Europe, ordered a July 5, 1944, flyoff at Hurn, England, pitting the P-61 directly against Vandenberg’s choice, the British Mosquito. Lt. Col. Winston W. Kratz, director of night fighter training in the United States, bet $500 that the Mosquito could outperform the Widow. According to the 422d NFS historian, the competing P-61, “tweaked” to get maximum performance, proved faster at all altitudes, “outturned the Mossie at every altitude and by a big margin and far surpassed the Mossie in rate of climb.” All in all, the historian noted, “a most enjoyable afternoon-Kratz paid off.” The official report concluded that the “P-61 can out-climb the Mosquito due to the ability of the P-61 to operate indefinitely at military power without overheating,” critical to closing on a bogey.


This is an excerpt from the USAF report “Conquering the Night: Army Air Forces Night Fighters At War” by Stephen McFarland. The issue of being able to climb indefinitely at military power seems to me to be a huge advantage.

Also from that report about the P-61:

Still, any aircraft that could bring down an Me 410 flying 375 miles per hour at 24,000 feet and a Ju 52 flying 90 miles per hour at 1,000 feet in the darkness of midnight was obviously a successful fighter.

[Wuzak]

quote:Originally posted by BuzzLightyear

[quote]quote:
Wouldn’t it be fair to compare similar power settings? Comparing the Mosquito’s WEP speed to the BW’s military power speed doesn’t make much sense.


Yes it would. As far as I can tell the British only gave one power rating - they did not specify a WEP rating. The performance figures for the Mosquito are, again as far as I am aware, for "military power", not WEP.

Looking at the climb rates on the charts, the BW on military power has an initial climb rate in the region of 2250-2500ft/min, about the same as for the Mosquito.



quote:Originally posted by BuzzLightyear

Which “version” of the NF 30 did 424mph? I’ll prefer to stick with respected books and researchers.


One of those sources claimed Jane's as a source. Do they count?

Most of the NF Mk30s were fitted with AI MkX RADAR. Unless it is stated specifically otherwise you would think that the predominant model was the one quoted.



Originally posted by BuzzLightyear

In the Pacific, especially near the end of the war, Ki-46-III recce planes, with speeds of well over 400mph, flying over Okinawa and other US captures could only be intercepted (and then only occassionally) by fast climbing day fighters which were land-radar guided. In this case, if a Black Widow couldn't catch them, a Mosquito wouldn't help.


I beg to differ. A Black Widow on WEP was substantially down on the later model NF Mk30 (contemporary of the P61B) in top speed, 30mph on your figures. It would therefore be able to track and catch faster planes than the P61 would. The example of the Ki-46-III is valid, though, as the Mosquito would not catch something "substantially faster than 400mph".

btw, what did they use to attempt interception? P51s, P47s, P38s?

[Kutscha]

quote:flying over Okinawa and other US captures could only be intercepted (and then only occassionally) by fast climbing day fighters
The only way the Dinah could be caught was if the US fighter was already in the air and at altitude so it could dive on the Dinah.

Radar watching was a favourite pass-time late in the war but the pilots watching would say, "forget it, it's a Dinah" when the 'blip' moved too fast across the CRT.

On PB props. At altitude they gave more 'bite' in the thin air. It was in the thicker air at lower altitudes that they caused a loss of speed.

The NF 30 only came with a radar nose. The Edmonton Mossie is a B35. It was one of 10 Mossies sold to Spartan Air Services for photo mapping.

a photo while with Spartan, http://www.cahs.com/images/journal/CoverPicture99a.htm

VP189 B35 231OCU Sold 15.12.54 CF-HMQ VP-KOM CF-HMQ pres. City of Edmonton Avn Mus as 'HR147/TH-Z'

The flat windscreen of the Mossie caused a ~15mph drop in speed.

[BuzzLightyear]

quote:Originally posted by Kutscha

The NF 30 only came with a radar nose. The Edmonton Mossie is a B35. It was one of 10 Mossies sold to Spartan Air Services for photo mapping.

a photo while with Spartan, http://www.cahs.com/images/journal/CoverPicture99a.htm

VP189 B35 231OCU Sold 15.12.54 CF-HMQ VP-KOM CF-HMQ pres. City of Edmonton Avn Mus as 'HR147/TH-Z'

The flat windscreen of the Mossie caused a ~15mph drop in speed.


Well, so much for internet sources ;)

[BuzzLightyear]

quote:
Originally posted by Wuzak
Yes it would. As far as I can tell the British only gave one power rating - they did not specify a WEP rating. The performance figures for the Mosquito are, again as far as I am aware, for "military power", not WEP.

Looking at the climb rates on the charts, the BW on military power has an initial climb rate in the region of 2250-2500ft/min, about the same as for the Mosquito.


Of course they rated on WEP, or their equivalent “Operational Necessity.”

Here is a portion of the Mossie FB 6 manual and you can clearly see the ratings:

http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/mossie.jpg

And the anecdotal report of outclimbing the Mossie is completely consistent with the published climb rates.





quote:
One of those sources claimed Jane's as a source. Do they count?


I’d like to see it, since it is not consistent with such respected researchers as Francis Mason and A J Jackson.




quote:
I beg to differ. A Black Widow on WEP was substantially down on the later model NF Mk30 (contemporary of the P61B) in top speed, 30mph on your figures. It would therefore be able to track and catch faster planes than the P61 would. The example of the Ki-46-III is valid, though, as the Mosquito would not catch something "substantially faster than 400mph".

btw, what did they use to attempt interception? P51s, P47s, P38s?


Night Interception and Night Fighting are two different things. In the night fighter role the BW was used as a prowler looking for air targets of opportunity. Super high top speed was not a necessity. In the interception role, a fast climb rate is very important. Ask any Spitfire of Bf-109 fan. And when it came to the fastest axis planes, it wouldn’t matter if it was a Mossie or a BW, neither was going to be suitable for interception. But against the planes the axis took to flying at night – light and medium bombers - either plane had sufficient speed.

As far was what was used to intercept Dinahs, I suppose any number of land fighters were used. Like Kutscha said, the trick to intercepting these planes was to detect them far enough out that even a mediocre climber like the P-51 could be in place before the intruder got there.

Dinahs were notoriously hard to intercept. They were fantastic planes with high top and cruising speeds. And for along time they operated with impunity even over B-29 bases.

[Wuzak]

quote:Originally posted by BuzzLightyear

quote:
Originally posted by Wuzak
Yes it would. As far as I can tell the British only gave one power rating - they did not specify a WEP rating. The performance figures for the Mosquito are, again as far as I am aware, for "military power", not WEP.

Looking at the climb rates on the charts, the BW on military power has an initial climb rate in the region of 2250-2500ft/min, about the same as for the Mosquito.


Of course they rated on WEP, or their equivalent “Operational Necessity.”

Here is a portion of the Mossie FB 6 manual and you can clearly see the ratings:

http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/mossie.jpg

And the anecdotal report of outclimbing the Mossie is completely consistent with the published climb rates.





quote:
One of those sources claimed Jane's as a source. Do they count?


I’d like to see it, since it is not consistent with such respected researchers as Francis Mason and A J Jackson.




quote:
I beg to differ. A Black Widow on WEP was substantially down on the later model NF Mk30 (contemporary of the P61B) in top speed, 30mph on your figures. It would therefore be able to track and catch faster planes than the P61 would. The example of the Ki-46-III is valid, though, as the Mosquito would not catch something "substantially faster than 400mph".

btw, what did they use to attempt interception? P51s, P47s, P38s?


Night Interception and Night Fighting are two different things. In the night fighter role the BW was used as a prowler looking for air targets of opportunity. Super high top speed was not a necessity. In the interception role, a fast climb rate is very important. Ask any Spitfire of Bf-109 fan. And when it came to the fastest axis planes, it wouldn’t matter if it was a Mossie or a BW, neither was going to be suitable for interception. But against the planes the axis took to flying at night – light and medium bombers - either plane had sufficient speed.

As far was what was used to intercept Dinahs, I suppose any number of land fighters were used. Like Kutscha said, the trick to intercepting these planes was to detect them far enough out that even a mediocre climber like the P-51 could be in place before the intruder got there.

Dinahs were notoriously hard to intercept. They were fantastic planes with high top and cruising speeds. And for along time they operated with impunity even over B-29 bases.

[Groggy]

quote:Originally posted by Wuzak

quote:Originally posted by BuzzLightyear

quote:
Originally posted by Wuzak
Yes it would. As far as I can tell the British only gave one power rating - they did not specify a WEP rating. The performance figures for the Mosquito are, again as far as I am aware, for "military power", not WEP.

Looking at the climb rates on the charts, the BW on military power has an initial climb rate in the region of 2250-2500ft/min, about the same as for the Mosquito.


Of course they rated on WEP, or their equivalent “Operational Necessity.”

Here is a portion of the Mossie FB 6 manual and you can clearly see the ratings:

http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/mossie.jpg

And the anecdotal report of outclimbing the Mossie is completely consistent with the published climb rates.





quote:
One of those sources claimed Jane's as a source. Do they count?


I’d like to see it, since it is not consistent with such respected researchers as Francis Mason and A J Jackson.




quote:
I beg to differ. A Black Widow on WEP was substantially down on the later model NF Mk30 (contemporary of the P61B) in top speed, 30mph on your figures. It would therefore be able to track and catch faster planes than the P61 would. The example of the Ki-46-III is valid, though, as the Mosquito would not catch something "substantially faster than 400mph".

btw, what did they use to attempt interception? P51s, P47s, P38s?


Night Interception and Night Fighting are two different things. In the night fighter role the BW was used as a prowler looking for air targets of opportunity. Super high top speed was not a necessity. In the interception role, a fast climb rate is very important. Ask any Spitfire of Bf-109 fan. And when it came to the fastest axis planes, it wouldn’t matter if it was a Mossie or a BW, neither was going to be suitable for interception. But against the planes the axis took to flying at night – light and medium bombers - either plane had sufficient speed.

As far was what was used to intercept Dinahs, I suppose any number of land fighters were used. Like Kutscha said, the trick to intercepting these planes was to detect them far enough out that even a mediocre climber like the P-51 could be in place before the intruder got there.

Dinahs were notoriously hard to intercept. They were fantastic planes with high top and cruising speeds. And for along time they operated with impunity even over B-29 bases.



There is an example of a Dinah held at RAF cosford, what puzzles me is the following statement taken from the Museum blurb "the 'Dinah' was so successful that Germany tried (in vain) to acquire manufacturing rights from Japan." is this true??
Mitsubishi
Ki-46 'Dinah'

Period: WWII
One of the most elegant aircraft of World War Two, the 'Dinah' was so successful that Germany tried (in vain) to acquire manufacturing rights from Japan. Although fighter and ground attack versions were developed, it was in the high-altitude photographic reconnaissance role that the Ki46 excelled. Given allied codename 'Dinah', this aircraft combined high speed with long range and was able to cover the entire Pacific theatre of operations with little opposition.

[Wuzak]

quote:Originally posted by BuzzLightyear

Of course they rated on WEP, or their equivalent “Operational Necessity.”

Here is a portion of the Mossie FB 6 manual and you can clearly see the ratings:

http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/mossie.jpg


The exert shows that there are different ratings, but does not show what hp ratings they are - probablybecause a chart would be required for that.

In any case, is it possible that the quoted maximum speed of 407-410mph is at max continuous, or 1 hour limit, and the speed of 424mph is combat necessity, in the same way that a Black Widow has top speeds listed as 362/380 for normal rating and WEP?

[BuzzLightyear]

quote:Originally posted by Groggy
There is an example of a Dinah held at RAF cosford, what puzzles me is the following statement taken from the Museum blurb "the 'Dinah' was so successful that Germany tried (in vain) to acquire manufacturing rights from Japan." is this true??
Mitsubishi
Ki-46 'Dinah'

Period: WWII
One of the most elegant aircraft of World War Two, the 'Dinah' was so successful that Germany tried (in vain) to acquire manufacturing rights from Japan. Although fighter and ground attack versions were developed, it was in the high-altitude photographic reconnaissance role that the Ki46 excelled. Given allied codename 'Dinah', this aircraft combined high speed with long range and was able to cover the entire Pacific theatre of operations with little opposition.


The story of the Germans attempting to obtain a license to manufacture the Dinah is included in other sources as well, so I suspect it's true. It was really a good plane.

[BuzzLightyear]

quote:Originally posted by Wuzak
In any case, is it possible that the quoted maximum speed of 407-410mph is at max continuous, or 1 hour limit, and the speed of 424mph is combat necessity, in the same way that a Black Widow has top speeds listed as 362/380 for normal rating and WEP?


I think it's highly unlikely. The only major warring country that I know if that routinely listed military-power speeds as maximum speeds is Japan. Both the US and Great Britain listed WEP speeds as max speeds. So I can't think of a reason why it would be different just for the Mossie.

[Groggy]

quote:Originally posted by BuzzLightyear

quote:Originally posted by Groggy
There is an example of a Dinah held at RAF cosford, what puzzles me is the following statement taken from the Museum blurb "the 'Dinah' was so successful that Germany tried (in vain) to acquire manufacturing rights from Japan." is this true??
Mitsubishi
Ki-46 'Dinah'

Period: WWII
One of the most elegant aircraft of World War Two, the 'Dinah' was so successful that Germany tried (in vain) to acquire manufacturing rights from Japan. Although fighter and ground attack versions were developed, it was in the high-altitude photographic reconnaissance role that the Ki46 excelled. Given allied codename 'Dinah', this aircraft combined high speed with long range and was able to cover the entire Pacific theatre of operations with little opposition.


The story of the Germans attempting to obtain a license to manufacture the Dinah is included in other sources as well, so I suspect it's true. It was really a good plane.

Thanks Buzz
Interesting -- the question now is why was no license given to the Germans???

[andyo2000]

Around 1942 the Germans found themselves seriously lacking a good twin-engine, high-altitude fighter. Domestic attempts to fill the gap in the form of the Me 110 and Me 210 were unsuccessful. So, the Luftwaffe High Command turned to Japan.

Through the Nippon-German technical exchange program a few Ki-46s were acquired by the Germans. They didn't find it to be as great as everybody said. Its total lack of protection, such as armor or self-sealing fuel tanks, made it a risk to any pilot who flew it in the ETO.

The Germans still considered negotiating for a license, but that's as far as at went. The problems of the plane, combined with Germany's inability to produce any more planes than they were, dissauded Germany from aggressively going for the license.

[simon]

So it wasn't so much that they were unable to get the licence, they just decided that the plane in question wasn't all it was made out to be and abandoned the attempts?

[andyo2000]

This isn't written anywhere,

but Germany did keep trying to get the license. However, Japan wanted a lot from Germany for what they thought was an excellent fighter. Germany, after testing, thought less highly of it. They still wanted it but weren't going to give Japan what they wanted, so negotiations ended.

[BuzzLightyear]

Andyo

Do you have a source for your information?

US inspection of the Dinah showed both armor plate for the pilot and some of the fuel tanks.

Tests of what TAIC termed "Dinah 2" with the Type 1, 1050 hp engines showed great performance of 372 mph at 20,500 feet and a climb rate of well over 3,000 fpm. These are not calculated performance numbers, but actual test numbers.

The "Dinah 3" with the Ha-112 engines showed exceptional performance with a top speed in excess of 400 mph and an initial climb rate of over 4,000 fpm.

I'm not sure why it wouldn't meet German expectations, they didn't have any twin like it.

[andyo2000]

http://www.features02.kitparade.com/dinahmb_1.htm

The background is basically what I used. I used a bunch of other sites to confirm that the negotiations went nowhere.


http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avdinah.html confirms a lot of the Dinah's problems and shortcomings. "...partly because the Ki-46 had been designed with speed as a defense and so lacked the armor protection and self-sealing tanks needed for surviving a shoot-out."

Also, the Ki-46 had other problems. They were slow to manufacture, with 4 a month at its beginning and only 75 a month in March 1944, at the expense of many other planes. Engine problems were solved with higher-octane fuel, something the Germans did not have.

And the Ki-46s were not unstoppable. Towards the end of the war, they were getting beat back more and more. Its not hard to say the Ki-46 III, with a top speed of 391 mph, could have been caught and decimated by a Mustang A, B, C, or D, with a low max speed of 409 mph and a high of 435 (all approximate).

[BuzzLightyear]

Thanks for your answer. I disagree with some of the assessments in those sites, at least in part.

I think there is a popular notion that the Japanese didn't armor their planes. To a large extent, that's true. But TAIC examination of the Dinah III indicated 13mm of pilot armor. That's pretty thick for any nation's plane.

Also, the 391 mph speed is "max speed" only to the extent that the Japanese mainly listed max speeds based on Miltary Power ratings. Many Japanese planes were capable of WEP and the WEP speed of the Dinah III is apparently approximately 404 (1) to 407 (2) MPH.

1 - Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War (see text)
2 - Japanese Aircraft Performance and Characterisitcs
TAIC Manual No. 1

At 391, unless a Mustang is on station flying CAP, he's going to be hard pressed to catch a 391 mph plane. At 407, he may have to chase it half-way to Japan before he caught it.

I still can't find a German twin recce plane that performed as well as the Dinah. Unless Germany's Arado jet or Do-335 was nearly ready, I think it would have been a good plane for the Germans, especially on the eastern front.

[Kutscha]

andy,

the Germans had high octane fuel > C3. The BMW801 required this fuel and there was many, many Fw190As still flying. When one sees 96 for German fuels this is the lean mixture rating as is 100 for Allied fuels. Part of the problem with the rough runing of the captured 190 was the use of Allied fuel which was not as good as C3.

http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/tech_rpt_145_45/rpt_145_45_toc.htm

As Buzz says, unless the Allied fighter was in the air, there is no way the Dinah would be caught.

Buzz, the Ju86 would be OK on the EF for the Russians had no a/c capable of reaching the altitude it flew at, even late in the war.