Obsolete aircraft and Beaverbrook

[PMN1]

Quite a lot of aircraft rapidly became nothing more than death-traps for valuable aircrew yet production was continued long after this was obvious (at least to the aircrews) - why was this?

Was it because of the need to keep up numbers whatever the cost, the built up inertia of the production program or was it something else

Aircraft that spring to mind are Blenheim, Stirling (Bomber role), Hurricane, P40 (to a certain extent).

How quickly could a factory producing these aircraft have been switched to producing aircraft that had proved to be effective?


Part of the continued production of obsolete aircrfat in the UK at least was Beaverbrook's 'numbers at all costs and concentrate on 5 basic designs'. Was Beaverbrook’s appointment to the various departments he ran (Minister for Aircraft Production, 1940-41, Minister of Supply, 1941-42 and Minister of War Production 1942) a good thing or a bad thing for those departments and for Britain?

[Romantic Technofreak]

As much as I know, in fact it was the genius of Lord Beaverbrook that saved Britain in 1940, and I think because of this he has the right to claim a place beside the other production hero of WWII, Henry Kaiser. For this, your list of "obsolete" aircraft to me is at least a bit exaggerated. P40 and Hurricane were only a bit worse than their best opponents of the other site of their time, Bf 109 and Zero, the Hurricane even is the Allied plane with the most kills of Axis airplanes. The Blenheim had to serve until it was relieved by the Mosquito, and the Stirling only became a lesser bomber when it was overtaken by better designs.

[PMN1]

quote:Originally posted by Romantic Technofreak

As much as I know, in fact it was the genius of Lord Beaverbrook that saved Britain in 1940

Apparently Churchil said the same thing to which Ernest Bevin replied 'You are right PM, I was always told that magic is 9/10ths illusion'

From what I've read the Beaverbrook myth was the result of him concentrating on the 5 main aircraft in production at the time (Wellington, Whitley, Blenheim, Spitfire, Hurricane)whether they were effective or not, and cutting back on R + D and spares production to virtually nothing. This halt in R + D had a serious effect later on by delaying the introduction or more powerful engines and aircraft.

I don’t think I’ve read a single book in which Beaverbrook is mentioned that doesn’t mention the general distrust of Beaverbrook by most of those in the UK Government and senior military positions - Churchill was the exception though he may have wanted to keep him on his side because of the newspapers Beaverbrook controlled.

[Romantic Technofreak]

Compared with the "design desert" Germany of the early war, Britain was a paradise. To your 5 designs there are Beaufighter and Beaufort, Hampden, the four-engined ones coming up soon in 1941, and then the Mosquito...
The fighter team Spitfire and Hurricane did their job very well, so there is nothing to criticize about them until the Mustang was required. And Britain never was ashamed to employ American designs.

The same you say about Beaverbrook is said in Germany about Field Marshal Erhard Milch, who was not an officer, but a Lufthansa manager before he started to work for Göring. Thinking economically as he did may care for keeping supply lines open, but not for developping technically superior designs. Besides the FW 190, Germany had no really successful aircraft design entering the scene after WWII broke out.

[PMN1]

quote:[i]
The same you say about Beaverbrook is said in Germany about Field Marshal Erhard Milch, who was not an officer, but a Lufthansa manager before he started to work for Göring. Thinking economically as he did may care for keeping supply lines open, but not for developping technically superior designs. Besides the FW 190, Germany had no really successful aircraft design entering the scene after WWII broke out.


Where would Albert Speer feature in German aircraft production?

[Corsarius]

I thought Milch got the boot after he told Hitler "even the smallest child can see that this aircraft is a fighter, not a bomber", regarding the Me-262, and pushed hard for it's correct designed use.

[Romantic Technofreak]

Speer improved the quantity, not the quality of German aircraft. And Milch was in charge until the end of the war.

[GregP]

Milch was the archetect of the WWII Luftwaffe, true. I have always wondered why the Junkers Ju-488 and the Heinkel He 277 were never pursued. I have always considered the blame to be Milch's.

The two aircraft above showed great promise and would have given the Luftwaffe some credible longe-range strategic bombers. Certainly far and away better than the He-111.

[robert]

quote:Originally posted by Romantic Technofreak

Speer improved the quantity, not the quality of German aircraft. And Milch was in charge until the end of the war.


Milch actually was forced by Goering to resign as both Director of Air Armaments and Secretary of State for Aviation on June 20, 1944. He was allowed to keep his title of Inspector General for the Luftwaffe, but this was merely for public consumption; he was stripped of any real power.

Milch was involved in an auto accident on October 1, 1944, was out of commission until January 1945. He was dismissed as Inspector General for the Luftwaffe on January 15, 1945, and placed on the Reserve list, where he remained for the rest of the war.

[PMN1]

quote:Originally posted by Romantic Technofreak

Compared with the "design desert" Germany of the early war, Britain was a paradise. To your 5 designs there are Beaufighter and Beaufort, Hampden, the four-engined ones coming up soon in 1941, and then the Mosquito...
The fighter team Spitfire and Hurricane did their job very well, so there is nothing to criticize about them until the Mustang was required. And Britain never was ashamed to employ American designs.



True, the aircraft did their job at the time but they were still in production long after they should have been, by 1942, the Hurricane was completely outclassed by the FW190 while the Spitfire MkV was still in production until summer 1943 (I think) long after being outclassed by the FW190 and its replacements the Mks VII, VIII and IX with their Merlin 60 series engines were in production.

It was obvious by the end of May 1940 that the Blenheim was not up to the job yet development continued into summer 1942 with the MkV.

The Wellington was a good bomber though I wonder if its continued production had more to do with the factories inability to make stressed skin aircraft rather than how good the design was.

Based on what I've read and heard, in the short term, concentrating on the main five aircraft did obtain a few hundred extra aircraft but many of those were just cew killers and it also had an adverse long term effect on aircraft production and the quality of those aircraft.

[robert]

quote:Originally posted by PMN1
...while the Spitfire MkV was still in production until summer 1943 (I think) long after being outclassed by the FW190 and its replacements the Mks VII, VIII and IX with their Merlin 60 series engines were in production.


The last Spitfire Mk.V built was EF753, a Mk.Vc with a Merlin 55, which was completed by Westland in October 1943, and accepted by 39MU on November 5, 1943. It was eventually passed on to the USAAF in the MTO, on February 29, 1944.