need all hurrican and bf109 kill numbers

[tenmmike]

i need hurrican kill numbers ,and ALL series bf 109... if broke down that is fine , any additional would be welcome ........iv sent most of my stuff to my dad for a month ....but i do want this info. any help , i thank you

[GregP]

Hey Tennmike,

I have some extensive files on air victories, but only one shows both the planes being flown and the victim, and it is operation Desert Storm.

Almost all my other files shown the name of the pilot, the pilot's country, the date, number of kills that day, his squadron, and the particular war he was flying in.

Sorry ... but if anyone knows where that data can be found, I'd like to get it, too! More information is better.

- Greg

[robert]

If you're looking for total kill figures for the Hurricane and Bf 109, I'm afraid to my knowledge they've never been published. If they have been, it would have been in an obscure publication, because I've been looking for reliable RAF kill figures by aircraft type for 20 years! So many German records were destroyed after the war that it would be virtually impossible to get reliable kill totals for the Bf 109 or Fw 190.

I believe that Hurricanes shot down about 8,000-9,000 enemy aircraft, but that's an educated guess.

[tenmmike]

quote:Originally posted by robert

If you're looking for total kill figures for the Hurricane and Bf 109, I'm afraid to my knowledge they've never been published. If they have been, it would have been in an obscure publication, because I've been looking for reliable RAF kill figures by aircraft type for 20 years! So many German records were destroyed after the war that it would be virtually impossible to get reliable kill totals for the Bf 109 or Fw 190.

I believe that Hurricanes shot down about 8,000-9,000 enemy aircraft, but that's an educated guess.....
greg i just need all 109 victories not a detail list just the grand total,same for the hurrican, i thought i remembered but now im unsure so i need it it again .I do have that at my dads..but i don't have hurri numbers at all. other the 14,333 made thru 44..... oh im mad at ya caus you were suposed to give your data base when we went to see the 262 but we both forgot:D ROBERT how do you come by that guess? that seems to me WAY high ..the hurris days were numbered by mid 42 and soon after that the hurri was used more and more for ground attack but like i said i have zero info on that bird and kill numbers..

[robert]

quote:Originally posted by tenmmike
ROBERT how do you come by that guess? that seems to me WAY high ..the hurris days were numbered by mid 42 and soon after that the hurri was used more and more for ground attack but like i said i have zero info on that bird and kill numbers..


I don't think that's way too high at all. As Francis K. Mason states in The British Fighter Since 1912, the Hurricane served "...both in the Middle East and Far East about two years before the first Spitfires arrived. The Hurricane it was therefore that fought at times and in theaters under greatest threat, and suffered heavy casualties accordingly. Yet on account of this weight of responsibility, Hurricane pilots destroyed more enemy aircraft - German, Italian, and Japanese, than any other Allied fighter during the Second World War, and by a substantial margin."

Mason states that Hurricane were responsible for 55% of all kills by RAF/Commonwealth pilots during WW2. Looking at the numbers we do have, we know that Hurricanes were credited with 680 kills during the Battle of France (the Luftwaffe admits losing 1,469 aircraft, so between the French Air Force and the BAFF, that seems about right), and over 1,400 during the Battle of Britain. So thats over 2,000 kills just in those campaigns.

Many of the Hurricane's kills came in the Middle East/Greece/Malta - most of the top scoring Hurricane pilots flew there, and there were one heck of a lot of Italian and German transport and reconnaissance aircraft just waiting to be shot down. Virtually all British/Commonwealth kills against the Japanese pre-1944 were Hurricane kills (with a few to the Buffalo), and the Hurricane served as a first line fighter in the Far East until VE-Day.

Also, don't forget that the Soviet Union received just under 3,000 Hurricanes, and used them extensively, in one of most target-rich environments of the war.

Given this widespread use, and what we do know about the Hurricane's record, a figure of 8,000 victories seems quite reasonable to me. It probably suffered as many losses, but it shot down a lot of enemy aircraft...

[tenmmike]

robert i still think that your claim is high but you have posted at least documented facts...55% of all common wealth kills ? i supose i would not have guessed that i would have guessed 35-40%(im more of a german aircraft guy so you might very well be right) but i do admit that your argument is compelling i will wait on my decision upon one or two more facts its hard for me to believe...but like i said you are making compleate since but in bob and over france you have left out AA losses to the luftwaffe and are adding that to the fighter claims (arent you?)..please keep up your good work ,convince me more ..thanks for your time

[robert]

quote:Originally posted by tenmmike
but in bob and over france you have left out AA losses to the luftwaffe and are adding that to the fighter claims (arent you?)..please keep up your good work ,convince me more ..thanks for your time


No, Allied (presumably French) AA claims were 210 in France, and were counted separately from fighter claims. In the BoB total, several sources I have give the figure of 80% of all Fighter Command victories as by Hurricanes, and I just extrapolated that from the overall figure of 1,733 German aircraft shot down. I have to admit that AA claims would be included in the 1,733 figure, but I'm not sure of an exact total. I'll see what I can find.

[simon]

British Ack Ack was dismal during the Battle of Britain, a great number of the available guns having been captured or destroyed during the BEF's defeat in France and many of those that were left were obsolete, scattered and low on ammunition (Anti-tank shells being given priority for the impending invasion), so the vast majority of those kills would have been due to fighters.

[GregP]

Hey tennmike,

Yeah, I remembereedd the CD when I got home and found it begind your seat!

Oh well, you're better off having missed it. At the time, it was about 68Mb in size and had many spelling errors in it,like my posts. Now, it is up to 83 MB and I have spell-checked the entire thing, so the new one is MUCH better and had a bit more information in it. I'm up to over 1250 aircraft, mostly military, and mostly post-1935.

Somehwere in my endless array of computer files, I still have your contact information, but it would be easer if you sent it again. I'll burn a copy and send it down in the US Mail. Recall I used Microsoft Excel, but the pictures will copy, paste, and drag-resize in any application .... mostly.

Send to: [email protected]

:-)

Hope you get better soon!