The Scourges of The Seas Part I

[Romantic Technofreak]

The Scourges of the Seas – A Ficticious Story by Romantic Technofreak in Four Parts

Part I: The Messerschmitt Me 261

http://www.airmodel.de/gallery/anack/m261b.jpg

Originally designed as a record plane for to transfer the Olympic fire from Berlin to Tokyo in 1940 (this was an idea by Adolf Hitler, for this the Messerschmitt workers called the plane „Adolfine“, female form of „Adolf“), the Me 261 happened to be an aircraft of outstanding performances.

See this link for data:

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/me261.html

Being more or less an upsized Bf 110, and equipped with the DB 606/610 engines that showed themselves unreliable in the Heinkel He 177, a discussion of the Me 261 could show once more what would have been possible for the Axis if she had known about her chances.
The idea is to wage a strategic sea war without having enough own ships. The Me 261 has a range of 10.000 km and a top speed of 620 kph. It surely is not able to attack the North American continent from western France and come back, but, given the situation of 1940/41, like the Mustang could do everything the Spitfire could do but over Berlin, the Me 261 could do everything the Beaufighter could do, but 5.000 km out in the Atlantic. And it was able to outrun any shipboard fighter of that time. The British were very concerned about the threat of such an inferior airplane like the Focke-Wulf FW 200, so what if the Me 261 had come into service?

There are also ideas for spectacular actions, e.g. an attack, coordinated with Pearl Harbor, against the locks of the Panama Canal. The crews could have been taken home by U-boats in the Carribean after landing on the water, or aerial refueling could have been undertaken by BV 222 or Ju 290 transports (trials were made in Germany). And a stationing on Hawaii, after the islands were taken by the Japanese, to keep the western Pacific free from American intrusion. I would also prefer a tandem engine configuration to the coupled engines. I also have to admit that the performances surely suffer from a considerable bomb or torpedo load onboard.

In reality, only three prototypes flew, the last one is said saw action as long-range reconnoisater, but I don´t believe that, because nothing in detail is known about that, and it is a hard thing to do keeping a single airplane of an unique type in action.

Clearly I don´t believe that the Me 261 in action would have been enough for Germany to win the Atlantic war or give our Japanese ally a crucial thing to win in the Pacific, but it could have been a contribution to an Axis victory, maybe also with spectacular ship sinkings, if the Axis leadership would have known which kind of war they were waging.

[GregP]

Seems like a pretty neat airplane except we already know the reliability of the engines ... dismal is putting it kindly.

So, the question becomes, if Germany HAD fielded the Me-261, and if the engines were made reliable, then what would the British and Americans have had in place to counter it?

Since we are speculating on the German side, let's speculate that the Allied side would have had a response of some sort. How effective it may have been is up for debate, but we surely would have done SOMETHING if the threat had materialized. Perhaps fighter-version Mosquitoes with extra fuel tanks in the bomb bay.

It goes without saying that any country involved in a war takes steps to address perveived threats. Prior to widespread use of radar, the Me-261 would have had to fly around looking for ships and the Mosquitoes would have known where the ships were since they were OUR ships, so the trick would have been for the Me-261 to have found the ships with sufficient gasoline left to attack and avoid the Mosquitoes.

So, RT, what do you think?

[robert]

quote:Originally posted by Romantic Technofreak
...like the Mustang could do everything the Spitfire could do but over Berlin...

Actually, the quote, and I wish I could remember who said it, is that the Mustang couldn't do what the Spitfire could, but it could do it over Berlin.

Considering that the Spitfire Mk.XIV was faster, more manueverable, had a better rate of roll, had a better climb rate, and a better ceiling than the P-51D, I think that's about right...

[GregP]

Yeah. the Spit XIV was faster. Not many Spits were, however. Pretty much the entire series UP TO the XIV were slower.

I notice most people defend the best of the series, not the most numerous. The P-51D ... the most numerous of the series, could outperform almost all the competition it flew against. It NEVER fought Spitfires, so it doesn't matter what they did against each other, it matters what they did against the enemy.

In the Battle of Britain, the Hurricane outperformed the Spitfire in shooting down enemy aircraft. Just THINK what the P-51 would have done (tougue in cheek). The Spits record there is revealed for all to see. We who were not there can imagine all sorts of things.

I think the Spits did what was asked of them at the time, and so did the Hurricanes ... in spades. What is the point of beating the two Allied fighter against each other? They never fought.

Agianst Bf 109s or Fw 190s, the P-51 was king, especially over Berlin. It doesn't matter what the Spits could do against Allied planes. This is NOT a competition.

If it were, I'd pit a P-51H against any Spitfire with equal pilots. The outcome would probably be determined by starting position and who saw the opponent first, not on plane versus plane performance. I said that just because you mentioned the XIV Spit.

[simon]

And the earliest of the series, the MkIs were in squadron service about 4 years before the Mustangs were...

There are all sorts of reasons the Hurricanes scored more kills than Spitfires in the Batttle of Britain, there were twice as many for a start, and the preference was were possible to pair squadrons of Hurricanes and Spitfires. The faster more nimble Spits kept the Fighter escort busy, the Hurricanes being the better gunnery platform, went for the easier targets that were the bombers. Like I say this was the preference, it didn't by any means always happen.

As for the Me261, nice post Romantic Technofreak and I have to say I agree with all of what you say, in addition to the Scourge of the Seas, imagine the implications of bing able to deliver a bombload of any sort may have had to the Soviet Factories over the Urals, the Me261 could have been one of those genuine potential war winning "What ifs...?" if it could have entered series production by late 1940.

I do agree with GregP though, if it had become a serious problem to Allied shipping (And don't forget the importance of the Condor was largely in terms of directing U-boats to attack the Convoys, rather than directly attacking themselves), then the liklihood is that the Allies would have developed countermeasures fairly quickly.

Faster and better climbing interceptors on more numerous escort carriers would be my bet, but until that came about then the Me261 would have presented a very real and serious problem.

Now imagine the Graf Zepellin had been built and Germany could have launched a Doolittle style raid against New York...

[Romantic Technofreak]

So, Greg and Simon, you really want me to counter-argue my own ideas? O.K., I´ll do my best!

The time-factor is always important. Giving the idea to use the Me 261 for its initial purpose of carrying the Olympic flame, the plane should fly by late summer 1940. Combat-ready versions should be able to take-off between autumn 1940 and early summer 1941. The Mosquito, and the Lightning, which I would prefer to hunt the Me 261, were in reality not combat-ready before late 1941. The Mosquito might have been too slow for this purpose. In 1941, also not many escort carriers were underway.

But the Allied always could direct their convoys closely to the "Stepping Stone line" between the Newfoundland Island, Labrador, Greenland, Iceland and Scotland and seek air cover by land-based single-engined fighters with overlapping ranges between the different bases, although the shipping is exposed to iceberg danger by this measure. Also, violent air attacks on the Me 261 bases in western France would have been very possible. The Me 261 is the first Messerschmitt design showing the main undercarriage containing of huge single tires. I think this idea of undercarriage design is not the very best, because giving frequent bombardment of the bases, the runways are full with bombshell splinters, causing lots of tire damage, this effect being reinforced by that kind of undercarriage design.

I never said the Me 261 would have been crucial. It were also not a cheap airplane and we cannot just suspect it could have been produced in sufficient numbers. But, combined with U-boat and surface shipping, it could have had an effect on the sea warfare.

The Doolittle Raid was an underhand trick to lure the Japanese into the Midway trap, and it worked well. But a German carrier attack on New York would have been much too risky for the effect, that´s what I say. I never had risked the German big ships for the merchant raiding, they only would have made sense for gaining naval superiority - in cooperation with e.g. long-range airplanes.

[simon]

Was the Doolittle raid any more underhand than the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour? At least the Doolittle raid took place under conditions of war, rather than a pre-emptive strike whilst peace negotiations were still taking place!

[GregP]

Hey Romantic Technofreak,please explain how the Doolittle raid was an underhanded trick.

The Japanese had struck at Pearl Harbor while stilll talking peace with us in Washington, and we were at war. We had not struck the Japanese home islands as yet, and saw an opportunity to do so.

[simon]

Additionally to my earlier post, the Doolittle raid was not intended to lure the Japanese into combat at Midway, since at that point Coral Sea hadn't even happened. It was a propaganda boost the Western allies desperately needed at possibly the low point of the war, Russia still seemingly teetered precariously at the point of collapse, Singapore and Hong Kong had fallen, as had Bataan and Corregidor, and the Prince of Wales and Repulse had been sunk. We needed to feel as though we could strike back, and Doolittle gave us that feeling.

That the net result was Coral Sea and Midway is probably true, but this was not the intention at the time.

To say that it was an underhand trick to me is an unwarranted slur on the pilots and airmen involved in the attack.

[Romantic Technofreak]

For the facts, gentlemen: The Japanese did not know that Doolittle´s B-25s started from the Hornet. The only explanation for them was they must have come from Midway, because they could not imagine two-engined bombers to start from aircraft carriers. So (because the "Son of the Sun", their emperor, was exposed to enemy bombs, what a disaster), they began the completely unnecessary attack on Midway, where the American carriers were already waiting for them. Unnecessary, because they could have taken Hawaii already half a year earlier, if they ever had thought about a chance to win. The American leadership saw that all before and was absolutely right in considering the Japanese reactions.

And for the moral: Tricking the enemy is legal in a war. Even Pearl Harbor is questionable on which side was the trick. Is it an incident that the carriers were out, but the obsolete old battleships stayed inside the port? The peace negotiations were stopped on Nov. 25th, and Roosevelt told unacceptable claims towards the Japanese (that´s what my books say, I don´t know more details).
Conclusively, this has nothing to do with the soldiers, here pilots and airmen, who have to execute their orders. And to follow their convictions, what I suppose Doolittle and his men did.

It was not my intention to insult anybody. And I think, to whom it concerns, you have no reason not to be proud about the pretty nice Midway trap you built for the Japanese to step in![}:)]

[Notta Brit]

quote:Originally posted by simon

Was the Doolittle raid any more underhand than the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour? At least the Doolittle raid took place under conditions of war, rather than a pre-emptive strike whilst peace negotiations were still taking place!

That was beyond silly.

[GregP]

And I thought this thread was about the Me 261!

Silly me.

[Corsarius]

Yes, back on topic:

More "what-if" about the Me-261, please!

[Romantic Technofreak]

Very right, Corsarius. But in your case, this means Axis airplanes not only over Darwin, but over Hobart![8D]

[robert]

quote:Originally posted by GregP

Yeah. the Spit XIV was faster. Not many Spits were, however. Pretty much the entire series UP TO the XIV were slower.



Actually, the fastest Mustang in service was faster than the fastest Spitfire in service for about six months out of the entire war. At all other points in the war, the Spitfire was faster.

Obviously, at any time before the Mustang entered service, the Spitfire was faster. The Mustang Mk.I entered operational service in March 1942, and with a top speed of 390 mph, was faster than the Spitfire Mk.V at 371-376 mph (depending on which source you use for the Spit). When the Spitfire Mk.IX entered service in July 1942, it could do 408 mph, which made it faster than the P-51 until the intoduction of the 443 mph P-51B in December 1943. The January 1944 introduction of the Spitfire Mk.XIV, at 448 mph, again made it faster than the P-51, and it remained the faster operational fighter version of either type (recce Spitfires were faster) until V-J day, although by that time the P-51H was on the verge of becoming operational.