The Dora13...

[ickysdad]

Just how fast was it? One gentleman is saying it was the fastest fighter in WW2 at 478 MPH however I don't think it was built in that many numbers. I've tried to show that the P-51H,P-47M and P-47N were probably every bit as fast. I think something that gets forgotten in comparing USAAF planes is their massive loadouts of fuel & ammo compared to their competitors.The P-47M hit 473 MPH(with wing racks if I'm not wrong) at 14,700 lbs. though it's wieght could be reduced down to 12,935 lbs. while still having a decent range along with ammo loadout. The P-47N hit 467 MPH at 16,700 lbs. though it too could have it's wieght reduced down to around 12,935 to 13,900 lbs while still having decent range along with good ammo loadout. The same gentleman stated that the P-51H was only capable of around 450 MPH however that plane tested had problems with it's water injection/over-boost system so it only could pull 67" on WEP the same as the earlier P-51B-D's plus it only used 100 grade fuel but it later could pull 90" on 44-1 fuel. Now some documents over on Tony Williams board show it hitting 471 MPH with bomb & wing racks installed furthermore his graphs show it definately hitting 485-490 MPH at 9,000-10,000 lbs. Tony's board also shows the a Mustang could be fitted out as a pure interspetor at around 8500-8600 lbs.
So a few questions...
1. Does anybody have info on the performance & numbers produce of the Dora 13? Know a good source on this plane?
2. How do you go about deciding proper loadouts for comparing a fuel laden/long range fighter(and probably one fitted with wing racks) to a pure intercptor which dioesn;t have near the ammo /fuel loadout or range?

[Lightning]

Hi ickysdad,

I've seen the top apeed of the P-51H listed as being 487 mph by quite a few sources. Whether it actually ever reached that speed, I don't know. I do know that some quoted speeds for various airplanes are based on calculations rather than actual test results.

Regards,

Lightning

[Wuzak]

The Spiteful XIV hit 494mph, and was flying before the end of the war, if not operationally.

Hornet prototypes did, IIRC, 491mph, before production models came out at 473mph.

[ickysdad]

The Spiteful XIV hit 494mph, and was flying before the end of the war, if not operationally.

Hornet prototypes did, IIRC, 491mph, before production models came out at 473mph.

Spiteful XIV hitting 494 MPH????? Is the same as a Spitfire XIV????? never heard of one being that fast.

[ickysdad]

Hi ickysdad,

I've seen the top apeed of the P-51H listed as being 487 mph by quite a few sources. Whether it actually ever reached that speed, I don't know. I do know that some quoted speeds for various airplanes are based on calculations rather than actual test results.

Regards,

Lightning

Yes I know about calculations on the P-51H ,in one from 1/11/1945 it stated it could hit 471 MPH on 90" & 449 MPH on 67" . One was actually tested in 5/1945 but it's Simmons regulator & water injection malfunctioned so 90" couldn't be pulled BUT it actually hit 451 MPH on 67" which actually exceeded it's calculated performance.
On the Spitfire Performance website it has graphs (from Primary Documents) showing the P-51H hitting over 490 MPH in interceptor mode of around 8400-8600 lbs. and around the 487 MPH figure at 9500 lbs.(approximately) .
However tests are just snapshots in time alot can depend on weather & such.

[Wuzak]

Spiteful XIV hitting 494 MPH????? Is the same as a Spitfire XIV????? never heard of one being that fast.

The prototype Spitefuls were converted Spitfire XIVs, and were called Spiteful XIVs IIRC. The difference, of course, was the laminar flow wing, plus lower profile radiators.

The Spitfire XIV was quoted as being 448mph top speed, the 21-24 around the 454mph mark.

[GregP]

Please let me preface this with a statement that I not trying to be abrasive in the slightest.

The Fw 190D-13 , to the best of my knowledge, was not a factor in WWII. Only 17 were built and only 2 are known to have gotten into service. One was saved to become part of the Doug Champlin collection in Arizona, and now resides in Seattle, Washington in a museum.

However, less than 20 of any aircraft could not affect the war in any fashion unless it had an armed nuclear bomb aboard.

So, I assume this is a matter of wanting to know the performance of the D-13 just for the sake of knowing it. I understand THAT easily. I know of no definitive source for D-13 data, but I heard it run once in the early 1980's at Doug Champlin's Museum in Mesa, Arizona. He had a get-together there and started up his P-40 and the Fw 190 D-13. It was really neat to hear it.

However, the top speed I saw was Zero. It was a runup. Neat aircraft, but tough to get definitive data on the type. I wish you good luck. My own thoughts are that it SHOULD be about as fast as a Ta 152-C or -H seeing as how it was basically the same airframe with a shorter wing.

[Red Admiral]

I don't have any sources on the D-13 apart from those that mention it existed. I would be wary of the accuracy of performance claims unless they are backed up. Using the same engine as the Ta 152, with less wing area and less weight I do not see a problem that it _could_ be faster than the Ta 152.

I have also heard of problems with the ADI system in the V-1650-9 giving problems with similar performance figures for the P-51H being quoted as above. I think it highly likely that the P-51H could make 490mph, but whether it could do it in WWII is harder to answer.

For me, the Supermarine Spiteful F Mk 16 is the fastest fighter of WWII with a top speed of 494mph. The two built had three-speed Griffon 101s; essentially the same upgrades as to Merlin 100 series applied to the Griffon. The F Mk 14 was built in more numbers but was a bit slower.

It also depends on altitude as well. The D-13 and Ta 152H seem fast, but because of GM-1 boosting, only make that speed at very high altitude where the air is thin. At more normal combat altitudes, they are slower. e.g. Ta 152H against Tempest; the Tempest has a quoted speed of 432mph, the Ta 152H 472mph. In fact, the Tempest is significantly faster up to 23000ft, where the Ta 152H becomes faster. Its a rather muddled question to ask.

[Kutscha]

Fitted with the Jumo 213EB engine, the D-12's speed was estimated at around 770kph at 9600m.

Hermann's Long Nose book has a graph with various Fw a/c. There is also a comparison of the D-13 and Tempest which shows why the D-13 bested the Tempest in a post war fly-off.

[ickysdad]

I don't have any sources on the D-13 apart from those that mention it existed. I would be wary of the accuracy of performance claims unless they are backed up. Using the same engine as the Ta 152, with less wing area and less weight I do not see a problem that it _could_ be faster than the Ta 152.

I have also heard of problems with the ADI system in the V-1650-9 giving problems with similar performance figures for the P-51H being quoted as above. I think it highly likely that the P-51H could make 490mph, but whether it could do it in WWII is harder to answer.

For me, the Supermarine Spiteful F Mk 16 is the fastest fighter of WWII with a top speed of 494mph. The two built had three-speed Griffon 101s; essentially the same upgrades as to Merlin 100 series applied to the Griffon. The F Mk 14 was built in more numbers but was a bit slower.

It also depends on altitude as well. The D-13 and Ta 152H seem fast, but because of GM-1 boosting, only make that speed at very high altitude where the air is thin. At more normal combat altitudes, they are slower. e.g. Ta 152H against Tempest; the Tempest has a quoted speed of 432mph, the Ta 152H 472mph. In fact, the Tempest is significantly faster up to 23000ft, where the Ta 152H becomes faster. Its a rather muddled question to ask.



The P-51H did exceed it's Performance Estimate at least in the 61" & 67" settings but your point is well taken about it's ADI system. You stated the Spitfire XVI was the fastest in WW2 but unly 2 were built ,you could probably find other more or less experimental aircraft that were just as fast like the P-47J . You are very right "top speed" matters in the essence of where/what altitude you really need it being top dog at 30,000' doesn't matter much if most combat is always taking place at 20,000'.

[Red Admiral]

It really depends on how you define things. The XP-47J was a prototype and would have been slower in service. The Spiteful F Mk 16 was a production aircraft (albeit limited, though converted from Spitfires anyway) with a more powerful engine. With the varying conditions and weights of the aircraft you're looking at about a 20-30mph difference in max speeds possible anyway.

[GregP]

A production run of two IS a prototype, same as the P-47J was. You can't caim a run of two as a production run. It just won't wash.

Heck, the Germans had prototype runs such as the V-1, V-2, V-x series of aircraft that were more than two aircraft. Think of the Bf 109V-1.

We in the U.S.A. even made two XP-59A jet aircraft ... and they were prototypes.

By the way, the P-51H could easliy make the projected numbers, but was a shade late for WWII in the ETO.

In WWII, whether or not a particular aircraft could make the performance numbers for the type was mostly a matter of weather, maintenance, and crew. If your crew chief was good and your engine wasn't too tired, your prop was fresh and balanced, and if the mud at the airfield didn't make the surfaces too rough, then you stood a great chance of maing the numbers.

If your plane was dirty, your engine or prop tired, and/or your crew chief not too good, you were not going to win any speed contests.

[Kutscha]

Production of the P-47J was abandoned before any were completed Greg. There was originally 650 Spiteful XIV on the order book.

[Nick Sumner]

A production run of two IS a prototype, same as the P-47J was. You can't caim a run of two as a production run. It just won't wash.



Not to be pedantic but I can't really agree there Greg, prototypes are what we would call today 'proof of concept' whereas production aircraft are usually designed for service no matter how short the production run. I believe I'm correct in saying that there were prototype Spitefuls which were distinct from the production machines.

[GregP]

Can't agree with you guys.

The P-47J COULD have gone into production, but did not because the war was about over.

A production run of two is non sequitar ... doesn't wash with me, and no argument will convince me otherwise. If you go through the expense to ramp up a production line, you won;t stop with two.

The only reason you might call them "production" is becuase they had armament and a production radio. Otherwise, they were experiments with existing products, making them prototypes. That's what "experiments" are.

But I still like you both ... :) Maybe some beer would make things easier?

[Kutscha]

Plans for production of the P-47J were canned because of the XP-72.

That doesn't make sense Greg as the P-47N went into production. The N first flew in July 1994, (edit: 1944) and began production in Dec. 1944 The J first flew in Nov 1943 so there was lots of time before the end of the war.

[GregP]

You better have some of that beer ... :)

[ickysdad]

Plans for production of the P-47J were canned because of the XP-72.

That doesn't make sense Greg as the P-47N went into production. The N first flew in July 1994, (edit: 1944) and began production in Dec. 1944 The J first flew in Nov 1943 so there was lots of time before the end of the war.


The P-47J was an interceptor while the P-47N was a long range escort which was what the USAAF wanted not an interceptor.

[Red Admiral]

The Spitefuls were production aircraft (originally Spitfire XIVs) fitted with different engines but still with guns, armour and equipment. It could be termed as a prototype but equally functioning as a combat aircraft.

The XP-47J was a prototype without equipment, not a combat aircraft. For comparison the XP-47M made 488mph yet the P-47M production machines made 470mph.

[ickysdad]

The Spitefuls were production aircraft (originally Spitfire XIVs) fitted with different engines but still with guns, armour and equipment. It could be termed as a prototype but equally functioning as a combat aircraft.

The XP-47J was a prototype without equipment, not a combat aircraft. For comparison the XP-47M made 488mph yet the P-47M production machines made 470mph.


The XP-47J was armed and carried ballast simulating 267 rounds per gun when it was tested.. The P-47M actually obtained 488+ MPH in service when ground crews tinkered with it,ala over boosted it however even in it's own test,the XP-47M was armed and had ballast to simulate an ammo load.. Back to the P-47J it wieghed 9,663 lbs. empty which is about 900-1300 lbs. lighter then an empty "D" model but it only had 6 MG's, less fuel and such but was still combat capable. My sources are Bill Norton's " US Experimental & Prototype Aircraft Projects : Fighters 1939-1945" , J. Baughers website and the Planes & Pilots Website but mainly Norton's book.

edit...
Francis Dean's "America's 100,000" shows the P-47M as hitting 470+ MPH at 14,700 lbs. using USAAF data. It also shows the P-47N as hitting about 465 MPH at 16,700 lbs. . The wieght figures for the P-47M includes an extra 166 lbs. of ammo, 72 lbs. of extra oil,, and 370 gallons of fuel, Of course it could just be flown with normal ammo loadout of 498 lbs. of ammo and 205 gallons as fuel as a pure interceptor. The P-47N meanwhile in maximum fuel load of 16,700 lbs. carried 72 lbs. of extra oil, 2 drop tanks of 175 lbs. and 700 gallons of fuel(though it could carry up to 996 gallons) though it could to be lightened for say intercptor work.

[GregP]

How about a run of, say, three? You think that's a production run?

It's like asking Clinton if he had relations with Monica; the answer depends on the definition. My definition of production run starts at about 50.

Remember, we have causalties not because we are war, but because the ENEMY is at war!

This is fun.