VIP transport

[Romantic Technofreak]

I would like to start a thread about the airplanes used by poilticians, high military ranks (fighting pilots excluded!) and other celebrities during WWII. Please, the plane should be a little extraordinary, so nobody should mention a Junkers Ju 52 or a Douglas C-47 (but Soviet and Japanese (and other?) derivates welcome!), also Hess´s Bf 110 and Yamamotos G4M are not of interest.

To begin, Winston Churchill used for his travels to France in May and June 1940 a De Havilland D.H. 95 "Flamingo", exactly this one:

http://www.geocities.com/ctyoung57/DH95_04.html

[andyo2000]

OK, you might like this one.

A TP-51, or a trainer variant of the P-51, was modified to carry D.D. Eisenhower around on D-Day to inspect the beachheads. In the end, however, Eisenhower ended up not using this plane, and instead used a regular P-51. Neither the pilot nor future president wore parachutes.

[Ricky]

What - was he crouched behind the pilot's chair, or something?

[B-24WillowRun]

Question about Churchil's plaine. I thought that his Transport was a Halifax or Lancaster? Or did he have multiple aircraft for the different trips?[B)]

[andyo2000]

No, it was actually kind of funny what they did. They moved up the pilot's seat and crammed in a modified folding chair in the back. To fit Ike in, they removed armor and flak protection. Basically, a few lucky shots from an AA gun would have been disastrous.

[Ricky]

Actually, weren't early model Liberators used for British long-range VIP transport?

[B-24WillowRun]

I might have read about LB-30s as VIP rides, I will have to look over my reesurch.

But it is very likly, just to show you how well used in lots of differnt rolls they were [:p]

[Romantic Technofreak]

Thank you, Andy. I was hoping for stories like this. B24, of course, Churchill used different airplanes on his trips. Do you know something exact? If anybody knows a flight-travel anecdote about a well-known person, please post it. I decided to tell my ones drop by drop.

For example, once I read De Gaulle used the Amiot 370 record airplane as his personal one when he was President de la Republique 1944-46.

http://www.aviafrance.com/images/3179.jpg

Is this true? Does anybody know more?

[robert]

Churchill used many different planes for transport during the war, including a Boeing 314 Clipper for transatlantic trips, and later in the war an Avro York, but by far his most famous transport was a Consolidated Liberator Mk.II, AL504, which was named "Commando". This photo is scanned from the book, The Man Who Flew Churchill, by Bruce West, which is the story of William J. Vanderkloot, an American who served as Churchill's personal pilot from 1942 to 1945.

http://img65.photobucket.com/albums/v198/baclightning/Churchill_transport_Commando.jpg

[Romantic Technofreak]

Convincing, Robert, but what is this kind of decoration under the writing "Commando"? Looks like "Hero of the Soviet Union!":D:D[8D]

By the way, Robert, I would like to know if you own or run an aviation library?

[simon]

During the Battle of Britain Keith Park used to travel around in his personal Hurricane with trademark white flying suit. Apparently it was not unusual for him to call in unannounced to squadrons and the first warning they'd get of his flying visit (Pardon the pun!) was seeing a figure in white overalls walking across the tarmac from a just landed Hurricane.

[robert]

quote:Originally posted by Romantic Technofreak

Convincing, Robert, but what is this kind of decoration under the writing "Commando"? Looks like "Hero of the Soviet Union!":D:D[8D]

By the way, Robert, I would like to know if you own or run an aviation library?


Well spotted - it is a hammer-and-sickle! Commando was the aircraft used to fly Churchill and Harriman to Moscow for their meeting with Stalin in August 1942, and in honor of the occasion, the crew painted a hammer-and-sickle inside a red star on the aircraft's nose when they returned. Here's a closeup, from the front cover of the book. (It's an ex-library book, so I had to scan through the clear protective cover.)

As far as my aviation library, I've been collecting aviation books for somewhere in the region of 40 years, and have about 2,000 or 2,500 aviation books in my library, on all types of aircraft from all eras. That's just an estimate - I haven't counted exactly, although I'm slowly working on an Access database listing to catalogue them all.

http://img65.photobucket.com/albums/v198/baclightning/Commando_closeup.jpg

[B-24WillowRun]

Robert thanks. I knew he used A Liberator but could not place it. i will keep looking for aircraft. i know that Truman used a DC-4, but that was not that much. :)

[Romantic Technofreak]

Dear Robert, of course my eyes are not so good that I could spot hammer and sickle inside the pentagram, but the pentagram itself and the ankles above really look like the HSU decoration from a distance:

http://www.soviet-awards.com/title_pics/thumb/hero1t.jpg

(if the picture is not shown, use the link: http://www.soviet-awards.com/titles1.htm#tit1)

I don´t know if Stalin ever awarded Churchill this decoration, but it would have lookeed great on his dark suit (like the Soviet leaders used to wear it, although I cant believe Churchill would have been very happy about this):D;)!

Anyway, the picture with Churchill as "co-pilot" really is a hammer (his cigar surely is a secret weapon that can fire an AA missile if required:D;))!

Incidentially, I found this picture:

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/heirloom_series/volume4/images/169.jpg

It shows Lord Beaverbrook disembarking after a transatlantic flight. Although only a little part of the aircraft can be seen, it also looks like a Liberator (it is big and obviously it uses no tailwheel).

To stay Russian, Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov used exactly this Petlyakov Pe-8 for his travels to Britain and America in 1942:

http://www.aviapress.com/magaz/mav/mav2001alm/mav2001alm_7.jpg

The side where I have it from gives this explanation: "Pe-8 (Z/n 42066) from the 746th long-range aviation regime. This is the airplane that was used for V. Molotov's flight to Great Britain on May,19 to June,12 1942 to hold the negotiations on land lease" (No, Sir, Lend-and-Lease, Sincerely RTF)

Another question, for Robert or anybody who knows it: Roosevelts representative Harry Hopkins was in Moscow for negotiations end of July 1941. Churchill says in his book about WWII that Hopkins crossed Norway (!), Sweden, and Finland to reach there (page 545 in the latest German edition). OK, the US were not at war at this time and never were with Finland, but to cross Norway? Hopkins had been in Britain for this. How could he cross German-held Norway?

[meister]

quote:Originally posted by Romantic Technofreak


Another question, for Robert or anybody who knows it: Roosevelts representative Harry Hopkins was in Moscow for negotiations end of July 1941. Churchill says in his book about WWII that Hopkins crossed Norway (!), Sweden, and Finland to reach there (page 545 in the latest German edition). OK, the US were not at war at this time and never were with Finland, but to cross Norway? Hopkins had been in Britain for this. How could he cross German-held Norway?


The Germans did not own or operate any coastal defense Radar installations, not even experimentally during that timeframe in Norway.
Any aircraft could have crossed Norway by night without much fear of the Luftwaffe. As narrow as Norway is, only 100Km (60 miles) on most of its northern half, the duration of crossing Norwegian airspace would have lasted less than 20 minutes. A German fighter pilot would have barely gotten off the ground, much less intercept an aircraft into the neutral airspace of Sweden at night.

[B-24WillowRun]

Interesting. The Lord Beavertail aircraft might be a Liberator? It looks similar to the 'Comando', but i would need to look at the photos more.

Question any one have good information on FDR's Personal Plane the "Scared Crow"? It was a Douglas DC-4, I have only a little information that he only used it for one flight?[B)]

[Romantic Technofreak]

I don´t want to leave this thread without pointing on the Boeing 307:

http://www.aviation-history.com/boeing/307-2b.jpg

It is mentioned that the aircaft, militarily known as C-75, was used as VIP transport. But, although there is a multitude of webpages about ist, I cannot find out whom it carried. Surely it would have been mentioned if it were Roosevelt´s personal plane, but obviously it wasn´t. The picture above is from this link:

http://www.aviation-history.com/boeing/307.html

One is remaining and this side shows really fine pictures, though not being the only ones to be found:

http://www.flightheritage.com/Fechaircraft/307.html

It produced headlines again when it had to be ditched in the Puget Sound two years ago. Maybe you remember that I don´t like these old birds to be flown any more, while Greg has the contrary opinion. To show why I say this and to put a little side-swipe on him[}:)];), read this link please:

http://www.flyingtigerline.org/_disc3/000000d4.htm

[meister]

Hi “RT”
VIP transports is an interesting subject.

The Boeing 307 was a very nice airplane. WW2 prevented it from being a successful airliner. When the war was over, it was superceded by more modern airplane designs. Therefore only ten were ever produced.
So far I have not found any information about US Government Officials (VIP’s) using this aircraft.

Some VIP’s that used this aircraft are:
The multimillionaire, Howard Hughes.
The Dictator of Haiti “Papa Doc” Duvalier
.
President Franklin D. Roosevelt never used the C-75. Starting in 1944 he had a dedicated C-54 called “Sacred Cow." He used it to fly to Yalta, USSR in 1945 and meet with Stalin and Churchill. Prior to 1944, the only other aircraft used by FDR, was a Boeing 314 “Clipper.” He used it only once on a round trip to meet with Winston Churchill at the 1943 Casablanca conference

[Romantic Technofreak]

Thanks, Helmut, here I learned something, because "C-54" and "Sacred Cow" made me receive some Google hits.

http://www.boeing.com/history/mdc/graphics/histlarg/hist027b.jpg

The C-54 is surely one of the most important WWII VIP transports. It was also used by a various list of persons, including Winston Churchill. Of course, Gen. Douglas McArthur used the Douglas C-54.

To call the president´s plane "Sacred Cow" (by the White House press corps, says this link http://www.boeing.com/history/mdc/graphics/hist027b.htm, is already an impertinence. Subsequently Harry Truman called his C-54, that had followed Roosevelt´s one, "Independence". But our good friend B-24WillowRun shows some concentration gaps, mentioning a "Scared Crow" and "Lord Beavertail". LOL!!!:D:D[:p] Hope Franky D. and Mr. Aitken won´t slap him from their graves!!!!:D:D[:p]

The "Sacred Cow" still exists in the Air Force Museum: http://afmuseum.com/aircraft/c-54c_skymaster.html

Searching for "personal plane", Google told me that a certain Lt.Gen. George Brett, commander of Allied Air Forces in Australia, used this Boeing B-17D as personal transport:

http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/images/boeing_b17d.jpg

Also this aircraft is still alive, to be seen in the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum. Don´t hesitate reading this and much more of its amusing history in this link: http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/boeing_b17d.htm

[B-24WillowRun]

RT. thanks for the corection, but Truman's Plane was a DC-6 ,designated the VC-118 "The Independence"
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/annex/an35.htm will link to the Airforce Museum. I hope that clears up the air. ;)

[Ricky]

I've just been reading the history of 45 Squadron (The Flying Camels), and while in Burma/India they spent a lot of time ferrying VIPs around in their Blenhiem IVs - including such notables as (General?) Slim, the chap in overall charge out there.
At one point they had an aircraft & crew set aside as a dedicated VIP transport.

[Romantic Technofreak]

Thanks too, B24. I knew the next laugh (or smile) would be on me...;)
Yours, RT

[B-24WillowRun]

Romantic, you are always wellcome :D

[Romantic Technofreak]

I was just reading about Churchill´s return home from the first Washington conference in January 1942 in a Boeing 314 Clipper.

http://www.boeing.com/history/boeing/images/314.jpg

Starting from Bermuda, the airplane took its way to southwestern England. When they didn´t see Scilly at the expected time, the pilot decided to turn northward. Obviously an unfavourable wind had driven the aircraft south, and they could not locate their position correctly (they had no gyroscopic compass?). Also keeping radio silence, the Clipper was taken as a German bomber having started from Brittany, and RAF Hurricanes took up. But the Clipper landed safely in Plymouth harbour. Maybe this was the only time that Churchill was glad about his RAF failing to intercept an intruder from the south;).

[B-24WillowRun]

Nice picture, and story. [8D]

[Ricky]

I know King George had a personal Airspeed Oxford -

I'll try & find a pic out there on the web...

[B-24WillowRun]

Did the King use his plane? Or was it just set assied for him?;)

[Ricky]

I'm not sure if he actually flew it, but he did fly in it...

It was his personal plane from the 30's.

[B-24WillowRun]

Thanks. I need to find the picture but Consolidated used a B-24 that was part of an RAF order as a VIP ride to move between plans, but I cannot remember much more. I sould look it up and write that down.[8)]

[Romantic Technofreak]

During the search for the Boeing 314 above I found another story. This time the main actor is a Vought-Sikorsky VS-44 "Excalibur":

http://www.msacomputer.com/FlyingBoats-old/sikorsky/1942Vought-Sikorsky-VS44-b.jpg

and the passenger is Admiral Andrew Cunningham. Here the story goes:

One particularly famous flight from Foynes in June 1942 concerned Admiral Sir Andrew Cunningham, the commander-in-chief of the Royal Navy Mediterranean fleet. His pilot was Charles Blair, the chief pilot of American Export Airlines, which between April 1942 and 1945 operated 405 crossings from Foynes to New York on behalf of the US Navy Air Transport Service. The aircraft was a Vought-Sikorsky VS44A NC41880 Excalibur 1, which could carry sixteen passengers at 175 mph and had a range of 4,545 miles. It was given the designation JR2S-1 by USN but flew in civilian markings. The normal routine was to make a re-fuelling stop in Newfoundland but, as there were a thousand gallons of fuel left, Blair "began to toy with the idea of going the whole way," and kept on flying. He landed in New York twenty-five hours and forty minutes after leaving Foynes, having made the first non-stop commercial flight from Europe to the US city — with ninety-five gallons of fuel left in the reserve tank, enough for another 100 miles. "Remarkable voyage," commented Admiral Cunningham.

Don´t miss the pdf link where I got this story from. It is about the famous Irish seaplane harbour at Foynes:

http://iwn.iwai.ie/v28i4/flying_boats_foynes.PDF.

[B-24WillowRun]

Nice picture. I truely with we could go back to water born aircraft. There are a lot a places that amphibians could operate in the USA and some do. I like the S-43 myself.[:p]

[andyo2000]

We did have seaplanes rather recently. The Martin P6M Seamaster served from 1956 until 1967. They could carry 30,000 pounds of mines or bombs and could remain in the water for up to 8 months, being refueled by submarines, and being rearmed through hatches in the top of the airplane. Engines could even be replaced while floating. This was the last military-produced seaplane. Many people think the seaplane was doomed by the efficiency of the land-based P-3 Orion aircraft.

[Ricky]

And seaplanes are just so damn beautiful...

[B-24WillowRun]

I would agree that the P-3 is very good and can operate from a lot of places. But I was reading about the recent Volcano activity in Indonisia and thinking a seaplane would be good to move people in and out of the islands. The airport is closed but landing a seaplane could be done and avoid the 10 hour ferry ride. The Russians still produce some nice ones, jet powered and I think there still is a place for them. If the US would get it's act together we could have some of the Canadair firebombers to help this summer even just bye them.

Some seaplane are pritty. Others like the Martin P5M was not as pritty as the PBM. Think of all the small places that we could get in and out of if more seaplans and amphibians more likly were used. ;)

[Ricky]

Yes, I agree many are 'less pretty' - but when they land & take off... what a sight...[8D][^]

Small Seaplanes (well, mainly floatplanes) & amphibians are still widely used in many rather out of the way areas, like the nether regions of Canada, that have more water than flat, open ground.

And the sheer romance/adventure of travelling by flyingboat - taking a motor launch out to the aircraft, etc etc...

(Sorry - I've rather hijacked the topic...)

[B-24WillowRun]

That is fine. Seaplanes I think could make a comeback. There is a seaplane base near me in Philadelphia that would be great to use, if I could get my own plane, that is a few years off. But I think that they are great.

Now more on topic, what of the VIP plane that Stalin used? It was a Pe-8 I think?;)

[Romantic Technofreak]

Seaplanes COULD make a comeback. Some beautiful ones are still there, others could be developped. Big ones, small ones:

A huge X-plane:

http://www.x-plane.org/users/vaca232/hugeplane.jpg

The plane in the rear is a Boeing 777!

Beriev in Russia still produces various seaplanes. Hope the company will survive. The Be-103 is a nice solution, especially for the private market in North America:

http://www.beriev.com/images/Be-103_G2002_P08.jpg

The Beriev Be-2500, a huge double-tail project:

http://www.beriev.com/images/Be-2500.jpg

Contrary to the giants, there is also this feeble thing (Bob Bailey´s "Connie"):

http://www.msacomputer.com/FlyingBoats-old/BobBailey-Conney.jpg

And the successfull (over 500 samples sold) Pereira Osprey II. Enjoy!

http://www.msacomputer.com/FlyingBoats-old/ultralight/Osprey.jpg

[B-24WillowRun]

Nice graphics. I have read about the Be-103 and do thik it could work. The compony should survive, they have some good military contracts still. As for the 250 I am not shure [B)] But I was reading about the Be-12 it seems nice. But I do not think any have been retiered or sold to the public.

[Romantic Technofreak]

"If the firm knew what the firm knows..."

Leafing again in a book I have already some time, I see a picture of a Focke-Wulf FW 189 with the astonishing text:

"Treviso. A FW 189 assigned to headquarter of Luftflotte 2 in Italy. The aeroplane was probably used by Generalfeldmarschall Kesselring."

http://www.europa1939.com/luftwaffe/apoyo/fw189-1.jpg

(this is not the picture from my book)

[B-24WillowRun]

Nice 189 picture. I really would like more info on this bird, I like the bouble tail.

AS for Seaplanes, why not bring them back? I am working on an Idea to do so, but the large clipper types seem so un economical? I would love to have an 'Emily' or A British 'Empire Boat' for charters. And with the earth warming more ice will become water.[B)]

[GregP]

One reason why they won't make a comeback is corrosion. There is almost no natural environment more corrosive than seawater.

Any seaplane is a fight against corrosion that will eventually be lost. The goal is to get enough use out of the airframe during the service life to pay for the seaplane and make enough money to turn it into a profitable utility vehicle.

Small floatplanes mostly land in fresh water and can usually be pulled out of the water by owners. Large flkying boats are stuck in the water if they don;t have beaching gear, and they quickly corrode. Many early large flying boats were made of wood, and it tolerates water veryt well. The nightmare items in maintenance were the metal fittings and structural pieces.

Now, if someone could make a seaplane from composites, maybe it would last awhile and be economical. ALuminum? Seawater LOVES Aluminum.

[Ricky]

They can do wonders with materials now.
I bet they could even make a viable flying boat out of plastics...

[Lightning]

In the 1950s I saw both Martin P6M "Seamasters" flying on the day before each crashed. They were a common sight flying around the Chesapeake Bay during their testing. They were beautiful!

[Romantic Technofreak]

Who is looking out of this Caproni Ca 309?

http://www.luftarchiv.info/beute/italien/rommel.jpg

It´s Rommel, of course. I knew you knew it!:D

[Lightning]

Just as a general statement, the Fw 189 was one of the most successful aircraft of WWII. Its main stated purpose was "army-cooperation", but it was used in many rolls with outstanding results.

A plane this ugly (except for the twin booms, of course) had to be good to survive! All kidding aside, I love this airplane.