Vietnam aces

[Ricky]

I was wondering - there is a lot published about the US air forces in Vietnam, but not much about the other side. Were there any/many aces?

[Kutscha]

Ricky, Squadron-Signal put out a small book (#6075) - Air War Over North Viet Nam on the VPAF.

There is a list of VPAF claims.

Btw, the infamous Col. Tomb is an imaginary figure.

also a link, http://www.wio.ru/korea/vietnam.htm

[GregP]

I think there were 16 aces in the North Vietnamese Air Force (9 with the last name "Nguyen!"), 29 PRC pilots with 1 or more kills, 6 US aces, and a lot of US pilots with 1 or more kills, but less than 5.

In total, the U.S.A had 113 to 120 air victories, depending on sources.

The North Vietnamese had 112 air victories, depending on sources. They claimed 266 aircraft from 1964 - 1974. (We also had more claims than victories).

The US lost a lot of aircraft early on when we were not wary of ambush from below. Later, that changed. The North Vietnamese were attacking mostly our aircraft while we were attacking mostly ground posititions. Considering the VAST difference in sorties between the two, these numbers are not surprising. The US flew hundreds if not more sorties most days while the North Vietnamese flew a LOT less, and usually launched when radar said the US aircraft were coming. They were vectored below by ground controllers and attacjed from ambush, and then mostly blasted off for safe areas after one pass. They did this almost EVERY time when flying MiG-21s due to lack of fuel to do anything else, but the MiG-17s could hang around for a fight, and sometimes did.

By the end of US involvement, we were back up to a decent kill ratio. Though the victores were about even, there is great disparity in sorties. The US flew 1,248,000 sorties, more than in WWII. It was MUCH safer, overall, to be flying a US aircraft than a North Vietnamese aircraft ...

I have not been able to uncover any decent rrecords of North Vietnamese sorties, but it is probably on the order of less than 15% of the US sorties.

[Lightning]

Hi All,

Also, the North Vietnamese Migs eagerly attacked the bomb-laden F-105 "Thunderchiefs" while studiously avoiding the more-potent F-4 "Phantom." In probably the most successful fighter-vs-fighter mission of the war (I believe it was called "Operation Bolo"), F-4s approached North vietnamese targets flying at the same speed and formation normally used by the F-105s. The enemy radar operators were fooled into thinking that this was another fighter-bomber attack and vectored the Migs into the oncoming Phantoms.

By the time the Mig pilots realized that they had been tricked, they were engaged in a dogfight with F-4s during which they suffered heavy losses. On the other hand, no US fighters were lost.

Regards,

Lightning

[Kutscha]

From the book mentioned previously
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-12/1114844/NVPAclaims-3.jpg

[Double T]

Hi All,

Also, the North Vietnamese Migs eagerly attacked the bomb-laden F-105 "Thunderchiefs" while studiously avoiding the more-potent F-4 "Phantom." In probably the most successful fighter-vs-fighter mission of the war (I believe it was called "Operation Bolo"), F-4s approached North vietnamese targets flying at the same speed and formation normally used by the F-105s. The enemy radar operators were fooled into thinking that this was another fighter-bomber attack and vectored the Migs into the oncoming Phantoms.

By the time the Mig pilots realized that they had been tricked, they were engaged in a dogfight with F-4s during which they suffered heavy losses. On the other hand, no US fighters were lost.

Regards,

Lightning

That would be Col. Robin Olds... CO of the 5th TFW.
http://www.acepilots.com/vietnam/olds_bolo.html

Noted some interesting facts from NVAF shootdown stats.
(3) B-52 bombers shot down by Mig 21 aircraft.
(3) RB-66 Destroyers
(2) RF101 Voodoos
(1) RA-5A Vigilante
(1) HH-53 helo... by a Mig 21
(1) F-105G 'Wild Weasel'

Tim

[Double T]

I'm amazed I actually got a post to "take."
Usually, in the time it takes me to compose a post on this website, the login has expired and my post is lost.
THAT is why I don't post here very often!

So what is the login time limit these days?
10 MINUTES?! JEEESH.

Tim

[Double T]

I also noted only (7) confirmed kills by Mig-19 'Farmers' and they only scored on F-4 Phantoms. I take it the Mig 19 was a rare sight in the skies of North Vietnam.
-----------------
'Can't help but note the F-105 Thunderschief wasn't exactly "helpless" against the Migs... especially with cleaned up wings after dropping bombs and racks.
They scored 24.5 Mig-kills with cannon only...27.5 kills total. Nothing could keep up with a 'cleaned up' F-105 down on the deck in 'burner.
-----------------
The Navy/Marine F-8 Crusader had a 19:3 kill ratio against the Migs. (They shot down 16 Mig 17s and 3 Mig 21 fighters in the course of the war.)

Tim

[GregP]

Hey Double T, I don't seem to have a login timeout. Maybe it's your PC system and not the forum?

Hey guys, anyone out there except Double T have a login expire while you are reading or typing for a post?

Check in here so we can narrow down Double T's problem.

[Double T]

Greg:
I never know if my post is going to 'take' until I hit the submit button.
If a box pops up and asks for my LOGIN/PASSWORD, I'm fooked and the post is also lost.

TT

[Ricky]

Not here, but I have had issues in other forums. I always copy my post just before hitting 'post', them I can simply paste it and try again

There are few things as frustrating as crafting a beautiful (and long) post and seeing it vanish...

[Double T]

There are few things as frustrating as crafting a beautiful (and long) post and seeing it vanish...

Yup, and when that happens I'm mad enough to eat fried-chicken!
In the future I'll copy my posts before hitting the submit button.

Tim

[Lightning]

Hi Greg,

Hey Double T, I don't seem to have a login timeout. Maybe it's your PC system and not the forum?

Hey guys, anyone out there except Double T have a login expire while you are reading or typing for a post?

Check in here so we can narrow down Double T's problem.

I have had this happen a number of times. If some time goes by before I try to preview or submit my posting, I get a screen telling me to log-in again. After doing so, it tells me to "proceed," and all goes well. If, on the other hand, too much time has elapsed, it will tell me to resubmit my posting, but then it will not allow me to "paste" a copy, and all is lost.

The only way I have found to avoid this is to continually "preview post" without letting too much time pass. This seems to reset the time-out starting point to the beginning of a new cycle.

Regards,

Lightning

[janet986w]

Ricky, Squadron-Signal put out a small book (#6075) - Air War Over North Viet Nam on the VPAF.

There is a list of VPAF claims.

Btw, the infamous Col. Tomb is an imaginary figure.

also a link, http://www.wio.ru/korea/vietnam.htm

Such a very amazing link!
Thanks you for the post.